Help! Holy Paladin Healing - Tortos 10 Normal

100 Draenei Shaman
9660
Our hpally is having a very hard time keeping up with the resto druid and I on Tortos. We went as resto shaman/disc priest/hpally on another set of attempts, and he was outhealed by the disc priest in full PvP gear with spirit gems. He tells us that most of his healing comes from being able to stand and cast. He needs to move to avoid rockfall, which is when the most damage is going out, and he can barely heal anything during that time. I'm thinking there has to be a more efficient way for an hpally to heal during rockfall. He's doing half as much healing as our second best healer much of the time. He hasn't been complaining about a lack of mana regen. His ilvl is 500. Is this mainly a gear issue? What else can he do after stomps and during rockfall?

Here's his armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/moon-guard/Pentalift/simple

I asked him if he was cool with me making this post concerning his healing. He said yes.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6925
Not sure if it's new gear or anything, but he should ensure everything is enchanted and gelled properly. Several items are missing enchants/gems, and no JC gems. 500 ilvl is quite low but by no means undoable. Maybe consider upgrading his weapon?

On tortos a couple of things I found very helpful was using HoP on myself just before a quake stomp to avoid the stun. Pooling up to 5 holy power before a quake stomp will also allow them to get instant heals (EF - HS - EF) on 3 people in 3 GCDs. During the intermissions between stomps, ensure you're meleeing the boss for mana, and use infusion of light procs on divine light on your beacon target for extra hp (try to time them just after a snapping bite for maximum lulz). Also, holy prism is great. Quake stomps are 45 seconds apart (I think) and holy prism is 20 second cd, so use directly after each stomp and on CD between them. Devotion aura is also a powerful CD for if rockfall damage is too high.
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90 Human Paladin
8245
Those straight 160+ int gems need to be replaced.
He needs to finish enchanting his gear.
Divine purpose talent needs to be replaced with Holy Avenger.
Divine Plea glyph should be replaced with Glyph of Beacon of Light.
Due to the fact he doesn't have BoL glyphed, it's safe to say he's not beacon swapping which is a fairly large HPS loss.
About 20 seconds before he does his stomp, I'll pop HA (Holy Avenger) and get as many 3HP EFs rolling as possible. Once stun wears off, I'll Holy Prism the boss healing 5 players for a nice amount instantly.
To mitigate rockfall he can pop his personal, Divine Protection, or BoP/Divine Shield before stomp and as a raid CD he can pop Devo Aura right before the stun or right after.
Do you have any logs? (World of Logs)
Edited by Àbsolution on 8/16/2013 2:09 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16645
08/15/2013 08:48 PMPosted by Convallari
He needs to move to avoid rockfall, which is when the most damage is going out, and he can barely heal anything during that time.


No, there should be most damage from Stomp, the damage your raid takes from Rockfall should be absolutetly minimal and just from the splash it does. Maybe I misunderstood you, but if that's where people are dying, they're standing in bad !@#$.

Also, as previous poster said, his gear is in bad shape. Lack of enchants and upgrades, but also only have one VP item (the neck), and the ring and bracers from VP would also be big upgrades. His trinket is garbage, Price of Progress from Scholo provides better regen, but he should really be running LFR to either get trinket from Horridon or Spirits from ToES. I have zero idea why he's gemming pure int, that's just wrong tbh. His choices are spirit, int/spirit, int/mastery, spirit/mastery or mastery.

Do you run logs at all? They're really helpful to try and evaluate.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
10 man normal, three heal setup? Sounds like my raid. And I have similar problems. Absolution gives some solid general advice. Gearing will help, but I understand that time and gold can be a concern. Intellect is better than any of our secondary stats, but 1 Int < 2 Secondary. As such, always use a hybrid orange or purple gem for red sockets. Whether to go Spirit or Mastery is up to comfort.

Glyph: Beacon of Light glyph is the most amazing thing in the world. He can drop any of the three he has in exchange, each have their advantages in certain situations.

Divine Purpose is a solid talent, but Holy Avenger is a stronger option on most every raid boss once he feels comfortable using cooldowns (wasted cooldowns provide no bonus, after all). I've gotten to where I use it to soak medium damage phases, if nothing else, saving AW/DF/GoAK for them instead. Of course, maybe he already DOES use HA, and we're just seeing some of his non-raid talent selections...

For Tortos, though, even if he prefers Divine Purpose for general usage, grab Holy Avenger.

Stomp happens every 50 seconds. In my raid, I have two disc priests who probably don't spirit shell quite as often as they could, so both of us paladins will be in the same boat: suddenly, everyone in the raid is at low health. As a paladin, we have terrible mobility, and our pre-shielding is coincidental and incidental.

One thing I disagree with from Absolution is the usage of HA before the stomp. That's a lot of intentional overheal for some meager shielding and a HoT that will only tick 2-3 times when it's important. If that tiny shield prevents death, though, a little bit matters. The choice will depend upon how the three healers work together.

In my own case, for that particular fight, I use Unbreakable Spirit as it gives me an additional Divine Shield and allows Divine Protection to be up for every stomp, rather than every other one. Clemency and double Hand of Protection is also viable. Hand of Salvation is an important spell on this fight as a Get Out of Bat Free card.

For Tortos' stomps:

1st: Holy Avenger just after the stomp. Holy Shock, Flash of Light/DL/HR on the tank/beacon target give 3 HP which I turn into 3 point Eternal Flames on the lowest raid members. As a paladin, my focus during Stomp is to keep the two tanks alive, letting my coheals cover the raid. But in 10 man, there's definitely some overlap. Using EF in this way pulls double duty as beacon transfer.
2nd: Divine Shield, Avenging Wrath + Divine Favor. 8 Seconds of invincibility means I can ignore the stun and the first few rocks that fall.
3rd: Aura Mastery, just after the stomp. A good time for a fellow raider to use their cooldowns.
4th: Hand of Protection on self + HA. Immune to the stun, but rocks are still lethal (though mitigated by Divine Protection).
5th: No cooldowns are up, so it's Coheals time. However, I get my Lay on Hands ready.
6th: DS, AW, and DF are back off cooldown.
7th: Aura Mastery, but this time it can be paired with HA.

At this point your raid should be nearing the burn phase, which means just blow everything as soon as possible. Saving Guardian of Ancient Kings for this part is a good idea, though you might also choose to use it during the 5th Stomp, since you have no other cooldowns at that time. It depends upon how things are going.

Now, your paladin doesn't have to follow my own cooldown set, this just what works for me with my particular heal group. Combine them differently, if desired. The point that I'm trying to make is that for Tortos, USE your cooldowns, and know in advance which ones are being used when. Get as much uptime on them all as possible. 2 Minute cooldowns can be used every 3rd stomp. 3 minute cooldowns, every 4th. And 5 minute cooldowns, every 6. I wrote mine down on a list the first few pulls, while I got used to the fight.

Then check them against what coheals are doing, since they too will have strong cooldown phases and empty ones, like number 5 (good time for Tranquility, ya' know?).

As rough as Tortos is, though, the upcoming Megaera should definitely play to his strengths.
Edited by Wards on 8/16/2013 8:04 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Holy Prism and Holy Avenger are like the key things in this fight. Throw a Holy Prism right after every stomp and you won't have to worry about overheal since everyone's going to be taking tons of damage, anyway. Holy Avenger as much as possible, since it's only a 2-minute cooldown; you'll be able to throw out nice bursty 3-HoPo EFs 2-3 times in the whole encounter.

Another thing I've noticed that helps with this fight is to make good use of Infusion of Light during those Rockfall phases. Unless someone's really hurting on health, use Holy Radiance on a raid member or Divine Light on a Beaconed target. The more EFs you can keep up (especially post-Stomps), the more healing you'll be able to do.

And finally, make sure he's not running too far in order to get out of the circles. The damage isn't bad if you're just outside of the target zone, and if you get targetted there's a good chance another 3-4 will come after you in quick succession. Just do a short strafe outta there and that'll buy you time for another cast.


1st: Holy Avenger just after the stomp. Holy Shock, Flash of Light/DL/HR on the tank/beacon target give 3 HP which I turn into 3 point Eternal Flames on the lowest raid members. As a paladin, my focus during Stomp is to keep the two tanks alive, letting my coheals cover the raid. But in 10 man, there's definitely some overlap. Using EF in this way pulls double duty as beacon transfer.
2nd: Divine Shield, Avenging Wrath + Divine Favor. 8 Seconds of invincibility means I can ignore the stun and the first few rocks that fall.
3rd: Aura Mastery, just after the stomp. A good time for a fellow raider to use their cooldowns.
4th: Hand of Protection on self + HA. Immune to the stun, but rocks are still lethal (though mitigated by Divine Protection).
5th: No cooldowns are up, so it's Coheals time. However, I get my Lay on Hands ready.
6th: DS, AW, and DF are back off cooldown.
7th: Aura Mastery, but this time it can be paired with HA.


This is a really good way to rotate cooldowns. Use this, and change a bit of it around to match up with your co-healers. Aura Mastery works so nicely when healing those rocks, since the damage with be very small. Gives you a nice cushion of time to run out of rockfalls.
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100 Draenei Shaman
9660
08/16/2013 02:17 AMPosted by Miskatonic
He needs to move to avoid rockfall, which is when the most damage is going out, and he can barely heal anything during that time.


No, there should be most damage from Stomp, the damage your raid takes from Rockfall should be absolutetly minimal and just from the splash it does. Maybe I misunderstood you, but if that's where people are dying, they're standing in bad !@#$.


I wasn't very clear there. What I meant was, that's when we need healers healing the most - right after stomps. After stomps, regardless of how much I have melee and ranged keeping distance between each other, they sometimes still get hit by rockfall cluster splash damage. Every once in a while, someone will take a direct rockfall hit.

I don't have a World of Logs recording for any of our fights yet, but I do plan to start using WoL. I had never lead a current raid before this week. I would just look through recount tabs to see what happened during raid.

Due to Pent not being able to take a stomp with a healing CD mostly by himself, we were using Spirit Shell on every stomp along with one of my own CDs. Each of my three are three minute CDs, so I wouldn't have one up for the 4th stomp. I'd be all "JESUS TAKE THE WHEEEEL TAKE IT FROM MY HAAANDS" and hope people lived while trying to get into a good place to get chain heals out with healing stream, healing surging low people before breath.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
0

Due to Pent not being able to take a stomp with a healing CD mostly by himself, we were using Spirit Shell on every stomp along with one of my own CDs. Each of my three are three minute CDs, so I wouldn't have one up for the 4th stomp. I'd be all "JESUS TAKE THE WHEEEEL TAKE IT FROM MY HAAANDS" and hope people lived while trying to get into a good place to get chain heals out with healing stream, healing surging low people before breath.


"JESUS TAKE THE WHEEEEL TAKE IT FROM MY HAAANDS"
He's specced for Clemency, so just get him to HoP you. I did that to my co-healers if I know I probably can't solo heal a Rockfall phase during progression. If he uses them both early, he should have another getting off cooldown towards the end if you're really pushing it close to the berserk.

Also, save Guardian of the Ancient Kings for the last stomp you'll get. It's going to be crazy and frantic and rock are falling everywhere and the turtles don't look like they're going to end. Might as well go hog-wild and hope the splash heals hit someone.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
16645
I would really recommend setting up WoL, not only is it good to improve your play, or in the case the paladins play, but it can also help to see more clearly why people are dying etc.

Now, I doubt it, but he COULD be playing really well, with cooldowns and whatnot, but he's a little undergeared, and his gear is not proper, which is gonna hinder him. It's really all speculation without logs :(

What I did for progression was bubble first and sac the tank, second pop divine protection (glyphed), third BoP myself and sac tank. Those damn squishy tanks :P Your priest should be using Halo and pop that after every stomp, it's amazing.

Also, I would really try to 2heal that fight. It will make turtles die faster which is nice for healers since we don't have to move as much then hehe, and it makes the overall encounter shorter.
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100 Draenei Shaman
9660
We haven't been having problems with getting bumped up by whirl turtles. The warrior off-tank has been using piercing howl, our DK has been spreading frost fever and our hunters have been occasionally throwing down frost traps. The turtles go down fast enough, and the bats are dying before stomp. Our priest was in full PvP gear doing 51k on average overall, and our pally was struggling to keep up. The priest has been using Cascade instead of Halo. The spriest and him in our group think it works out better than Halo. Healing is an issue, and I don't think we could two-heal it with either the priest and me or the pally and me. I know it's probably doable with other healing players. It's just not doable for us.

--

A little off-topic, but our warrior off-tank has also been having a hell of a hard time getting the bats to come to him instead of the prot pally main tank. The prot's smart heals make them fly to him half the time, and the warrior says that once they're on the pally tank, they're very hard to get off. We've been trying to get double misdirects on the bats to make them go for the warrior as soon as they come out, but our hunters haven't been as on top of the MDs as I'd like them to be. I call it out, and it's as if they don't hear me sometimes. Near the end of our 40ish attempts last night, the off-tank started kicking for breath because the (maybe 4th) person assigned for it, like the others, wasn't close enough to a shell sometimes. We figured out that he was actually more useful as a kicker and had him go fury with the prot main tank taking both Tortos and the bats. It was hella hard to heal through, but we got further - 27%. And then the lack of prompt misdirects to the main tank caused the bats to start melting a healer's face off when they would spawn too far from the main tank. I think maybe what I should have done at that point was have the hpally turn on righteous fury and run to the main tank while misdirects would have been going out (hopefully) and have the pally turn off RF after bats had been picked up.

...or does all of that sound like a convoluted fail strat? Idk.
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100 Draenei Shaman
9660
Pally: I'm not using holy avenger
Convallari: Should get it.
Pally: No, it will result in much fewer eternal flames going out
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100 Human Paladin
9920
Pally: I'm not using holy avenger
Convallari: Should get it.
Pally: No, it will result in much fewer eternal flames going out


While its true that HA might cause fewer EFs to go out, HA is going to give you the EFs when you need them, not just randomly and having them go to waste.
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90 Tauren Paladin
0
Much fewer? HA will result in +10-12 HP gained every 2.5 minutes. Divine Purpose is +33% of what he gains right now. In other words, he would need to be gaining 15+ Holy Power per minute in order for DP to take over HA. At his gear level, and on Tortos, the movement fight, this will not be happening.

(This is another example of why WoL's is good, he can see exactly how many procs he getting on average).

At best, it'll be a wash one way or the other. But again, HA will give him the HP he needs when he needs it. This is not a fight where you want random procs.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
12170
I personally used Divine Purpose to great success but Holy Avenger should be just fine as well. I also recommend Holy Prism after each Quake Stomp and Clemency for 2 Hand of Protections. I would use Divine Shield on one Stomp, HoP our Priest for the next, then HoP our Druid for the next after that. Helped a lot for getting heals out faster after the stomps. Our Priest was also using Halo after each Stomp. Devo Aura for Rockfall helps a lot as well.

I have a video of my group's most recent Tortos kill:

http://www.twitch.tv/tealize/c/2762841

We are far from a pro group and I think I died during that fight but it might give you an idea on how a Holy Paladin can do that fight with success.

Being in melee range and using Crusader Strike helps a lot for getting Flames out faster.

Here is the healing log for that fight as well:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/7fd8zbprlhh6mryr/analyze/hd/source/?s=4734&e=5050
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