DK Tanking FAQ - 4.3 [NOT CURRENT]

85 Tauren Death Knight
0
one thing to note under redundant talents, is that in certain circumstances "unholy command" in unholy (resets cooldown on DG when you get a killing blow) is pretty useful. I know its trivial at the moment with content being overgeared and farmed, but on trash being able to occasionally deathgrip 2-3 times in quick succession to pull in casters is useful. I have this in my tanking build, and in certain places (ie, the the sindragosa gauntlet where half the spiders sit at range, the first 2 rooms of icc against the spiders/casters, dreamwalker pulling adds to you, etc) its very useful
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81 Human Death Knight
2405
Alright, I was doing some number crunching for Threat Generated, and a question came up in a guide as to whether it's better to use RS, or if it'd be safe to throw up DRW. Question was to the threat generated, which would be more. For the damages, I used a standard 2000 damage hit, and then added the percentages.. First number crunching post, so if you see any flaws, let me know, and I'll see if I can work it out. Note: This is a reply to your post on www.wow.com, not here.. I notice the question on this isn't here, but some people might still like to look at it.


Rune Strike

Formula: 2000 × 2 + 805 = 4850 × 1.75 = 8480 + (8480 x 0.8) = 6784 Threat

DRW using Death Strike

I figured DS would be the highest threat generated on a single target mob, with the healing. The healing, I used 50k health, 10% would be 5000, again, damage was a standard 2000 before modifiers.

[b]Formula: 2000 x 2.17 + 645 = 4985 + (5000 × 0.5 × 0.8) = 6985 ~ Damage and Healing Combined (The 5000 starts the healing formula)

So, those would be general threat values for each skill, to add in DRW I didn't change the formula, just reduced damage to 1000 because of DRWs -50% damage, and did the same with the healing.

(1000)+(2500 × 0.5 × 0.8) = 2000 Threat. (Per DRS's DS)

You can only get two Death Strikes off with full Death Runes. After this, we'd add up the values...

RS × 3 = 20352 Threat Generated
DS w/ DRW = (6985 × 2) + (2000 × 2) = 17970

I would have to say, using RS by itself is worth it if all you're looking at is threat. Although, I use DRW for the 20% Parry, as well.. I think it's a fair trade off, 3k threat for an extra 30% heal (with DSx2 + DRW) and 20% Parry for 12s.
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81 Orc Death Knight
2625
I was thinking of race changing come cata but would switching form orc to tauren be worth the extra stam?
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
Still no sticky? :(

Also no, Tauren racial health bonus is lol. Orcs are better.
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80 Human Warrior
1380
I'm curious as to whether or not Crimson Scourge makes any different in the Diseaseless argument? Especially if you don't have a warrior (or Feral tank/Prot Paladin) to put on the physical damage reduction debuff. A rare occurrence in raids I'm sure, but still a factor. With Crimson Scourge a FU combo means a Frost Fever, Plague Strike, and a Blood Boil (after the first application which will be free with Outbreak).
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
no it doesnt .. its always horrible. BB dont need diseases to apply the debuff. IT you might want to keep on your action bars, in case for some reason theres NO OTHER person available to keep the haste debuff. PS you dont even need on your action bars.
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80 Human Warrior
1380
no it doesnt .. its always horrible. BB dont need diseases to apply the debuff. IT you might want to keep on your action bars, in case for some reason theres NO OTHER person available to keep the haste debuff. PS you dont even need on your action bars.


That is a bit hasty to dismiss so regularly. Its easily possible to not have all the debuffs available through other sources, especially in 5-mans which will be difficult until we out-gear the new heroics, if Blizzard maintains is promise. Plus, in a raid situation currently (or even in the future), using a FU rune set for those three is significantly more threat (unfortunately my DK is only sitting in 219/232 gear so any data I can post would be considered pointless I'm sure, but I have tested it and the difference is significant - roughly 8% more initial damage and 41% more with the DoTs in my gear) making it a much better alternative if you're after more threat instead of more survivability.

On top of that, how about a situation where you aren't main tanking? What benefit does Death Strike offer over diseaseless if you aren't taking damage in at least 5 seconds increments?
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
diseases dont tick for much .. they are not scalling very well.

I tanked all regular and heroic instances from cata with quest gear/green/blues/drops etc .. aka, gear i got lvling my dk to 85 (not a premade with raid gear).

Pulls often take 30-sec or more to be done, with very few exceptions. So basically on most pulls you simply DnD > outbreak > deathgrip > DS > Pest > BB. This will cover the initial threat, you'll have your diseases ticking on mobs you are not directly attacking and everything will be happy.

Threat is not an issue if you know what to do. Diseases threat contribution is laughable. They are not even in the 5% mark. On most pulls you apply them basically because outbreak is free. Other than that, you simply DONT APPLY. Theres not one single reason to apply them.

There are very few "aoe" pulls, and those, disease application will be covered by outbreak. Regular pulls are NOT aoe'd. Simply because there are CC'd mobs etc. And if people focus fire on the mobs you are not tanking, they WILL pull aggro, whether you have diseases ticking on them, or not. If your BB hits for more, or not, it simply doesnt matter.

The main point is:

- Diseases are applied with outbreak, because they are FREE. Not because they are good or necessary.
- Diseases hit for a ridiculously low amount, so their threat contribution can be ignored.
- Diseases buff HS and BB by a very small amount, so if people focus wrong targets, they WILL pull threat, it doesnt matter if BB hits for 1k or 1.5k.

When you are OTing, again, diseases wont matter *%%* in terms of threat. Same for improved BB. So UNLESS you need the haste debuff applied, theres ZERO reason to use diseases.

The whole point people are trying to make is: +40% of crap is still crap. BB alone dont hold threat. Simply because it has no threat modifier, while DnD by itself generates a absurd amount of threat. If you dont have DnD you are screwed, +40% dmg on BB wont make a difference. The situation is basically this: BB alone wont hold aggro. Period. With this talent it will hit for 40% more, but stilll WONT HOLD AGGRO. So why the hell is the purpose of getting the talent? Thats why the talent is horrible.

Reports from beta are not "theorycrafting" or guessing that those talents are useless. We tested them, we asked them to be changed, and they were not. We KNOW they are useless. Thats why many of us simply lol'd when GC stated that:

A lot of the concerns about diseaseless Blood play make a few assumptions:

-- Someone else is providing the tanking debuffs (presumably without a major dps hit).
-- You can AE tank fine without diseases.
-- You won't use Outbreak.
-- Your threat generation will be fine without diseases (or at least the trade off will be worth it).

Those are all risks, but I don't think there is enough evidence yet how they will all play out at 85.


Those are not risks .. those are facts lol. There is feedback on top of feeback "hey we did that ... those talents are useless". The only statement of those that is completely wrong is that we WILL use outbreak, because once again, its free.
Edited by Eflow on 11/14/2010 12:30 PM PST
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
That is a bit hasty to dismiss so regularly. Its easily possible to not have all the debuffs available through other sources, especially in 5-mans which will be difficult until we out-gear the new heroics, if Blizzard maintains is promise. Plus, in a raid situation currently (or even in the future), using a FU rune set for those three is significantly more threat (unfortunately my DK is only sitting in 219/232 gear so any data I can post would be considered pointless I'm sure, but I have tested it and the difference is significant - roughly 8% more initial damage and 41% more with the DoTs in my gear) making it a much better alternative if you're after more threat instead of more survivability.

On top of that, how about a situation where you aren't main tanking? What benefit does Death Strike offer over diseaseless if you aren't taking damage in at least 5 seconds increments?
It's not hasty. We've been testing it and doing the math for over two months. Diseases provide so little damage contribution it's pretty laughable. I'm not sure where you think you're getting 41% more damage (or even 8%) from applying Diseases but that's not even remotely possible. You lose roughly 5% of your threat keeping Diseases up only half the time through Outbreak and the damage reduction you gain blows that out of the water. If you're not running Diseaseless, you're playing sub optimally every time.

Also, 5 mans won't be so difficult that you have to have the haste debuff or you wipe - they're already not and they can't be anyway or that would just be dumb.
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85 Undead Death Knight
3440
wow this is great stuff thanks!
why is this not stickied!
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85 Human Death Knight
2465
Awesome work OP!
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100 Orc Death Knight
14270

YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. LOLOLLO.


This kind of rubbish needs to go. There's a lot of good information in here, but it is hard to get to with all the 12 year old gibberish sprinkled through.

Dislike.
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85 Gnome Rogue
0
I am going to be trying tanking with my dk and I found this post very helpful.

Perhaps if it is useful, you could aid some macros that you found helpful while tanking?
Edited by Kardomegn on 11/16/2010 5:32 AM PST
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300

YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. LOLOLLO.


This kind of rubbish needs to go. There's a lot of good information in here, but it is hard to get to with all the 12 year old gibberish sprinkled through.

Dislike.
lol.
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
I am going to be trying tanking with my dk and I found this post very helpful.

Perhaps if it is useful, you could aid some macros that you found helpful while tanking?
I don't personally use any macros while tanking, now that the Rune Strike macro doesn't exist anymore. I can't even really think of where you would use one. Maybe for Raise Dead + Death Pact?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
8890
Good Job, quite excited seeing that My dk will be my main for Cata
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
Thank you. :)
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
0
Ok so I used to play a Enhance shammy and then went to dk tanks right before 3.3 dropped. DW was viable then so whoever said it wasnt just didnt like to try new things. Now with 4.0.??? the changes are neat. I completly agree that dieseases are useless but im going to have to agree with the bunches of other DK tanks who say that DRW glyph is good. The extra threat = Awesome. Plus parry isnt bad either. Now i do have a question or two.

1.Ive been told by 1 heals/tank/dps(she does many things) that im building my dk completly wrong. I should be getting more Avoidance and less stam. Im also wondering is the less avoidance worth the extra mastery? With the way rune strike works now you needs to doge/parry to proc it. I do understand that will be changing but im wondering for right now isnt the avoidance worth it. Look at my gear/spec and tell me if im actually doing it wrong or if whoever told me that im wrong is completely stupid. (sidenote: ive been tanking heroic icc for awhile with this spec/gear build)

2...i dont have a 2 yet but thanks =D
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
0
Ok so I used to play a Enhance shammy and then went to dk tanks right before 3.3 dropped. DW was viable then so whoever said it wasnt just didnt like to try new things. Now with 4.0.??? the changes are neat. I completly agree that dieseases are useless but im going to have to agree with the bunches of other DK tanks who say that DRW glyph is good. The extra threat = Awesome. Plus parry isnt bad either. Now i do have a question or two.

1.Ive been told by 1 heals/tank/dps(she does many things) that im building my dk completly wrong. I should be getting more Avoidance and less stam. Im also wondering is the less avoidance worth the extra mastery? With the way rune strike works now you needs to doge/parry to proc it. I do understand that will be changing but im wondering for right now isnt the avoidance worth it. Look at my gear/spec and tell me if im actually doing it wrong or if whoever told me that im wrong is completely stupid. (sidenote: ive been tanking heroic icc for awhile with this spec/gear build)

2...i dont have a 2 yet but thanks =D
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85 Orc Death Knight
4300
1.Ive been told by 1 heals/tank/dps(she does many things) that im building my dk completly wrong. I should be getting more Avoidance and less stam. Im also wondering is the less avoidance worth the extra mastery? With the way rune strike works now you needs to doge/parry to proc it. I do understand that will be changing but im wondering for right now isnt the avoidance worth it. Look at my gear/spec and tell me if im actually doing it wrong or if whoever told me that im wrong is completely stupid. (sidenote: ive been tanking heroic icc for awhile with this spec/gear build)
You probably shouldn't listen to that person anymore. You still want to stack Stamina almost exclusively.
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