New Forum Smell = New Ret QQ Smell!

100 Human Paladin
12055
Hope the new forums allow for custom themes soon. Already missing the old ones. Easy to read and scan forum titles on the old one...Oh well! Back on topic!
Ret. Problems. Mobility, Dispel crippled, Weak vs Armor, Bubble.
Mobility is pretty self explanatory and Long Arm of the Law is a band-aid. A ripped, not disinfected band-aid. Can actually get us snared.
Holy Breakout (name needs changing)
1HP 20 second cooldown
1.5s Cast time
The Paladin concentrates for 1.5 seconds and removes all Stuns, Roots, and Snares while gaining 40% run speed for 5 seconds. (Cannot be used while silenced)
Unique and Paladiny.
Dispel crippled. All of our major cooldowns and iconic utility buffs are easy dispel fodder, mostly because they are high value and low clutter, meaning a dispel is a no-brainer on a paladin compared to other classes. Need something to discourage this without making it uncounterable.
Swift Punishment
Isntant Cast. / 4 Second cooldown
5% of base mana / Self Only / 30 second duration.
Seals the Paladin's buffs from enemy dispels for 30 seconds. If Swift Punishment is dispeled, the enemy will be knocked down for 2 seconds. Swift Punishment will not knockdown the dispeler if the Paladin is Stunned, Feared, Hexed/Poly'd, or incapacitated, but will still be consumed before any other buffs.
Now I REALLY like this one. Gives paladins some form of dispel protection, but becomes much weaker when CC is used on her. Anyone on "dispel duty" has to first crowd control the paladin somehow before dispeling, or risk being hard CCed for 2 seconds. This allows the palaidn to find the dispeler and deal with her.
As it stands, Paladins have no way to bring High Burst, reliable Holy Damage onto other plate wearers, rendering us rather disadvantaged against warriors and DKs.
Hallowed Strike
Instant Cast 5 yards
8s Cooldown
Strike the target for Holy Damage based on Weapon Damage.
1hp = 50% Weapon Damage
2hp = 120% Weapon Damage
3HP = 200% Weapon Damage
Not as strong as Templar's Verdict, but will do more damage to a heavily armored target.
Bubble... Divine Shield: 8 seconds of invulnerability every 5minutes while doing 50% damage.
This spell...bane of Paladins since day 1. Kept for uniqueness, despised by all non paladins, and most paladins I know. Used as an excuse to not give paladins what they needs while its impact on actual PVP is horribly overstated. Can be popped by 2 classes. In PVE used as a joke to bypass content or to narrowly escape a deserved death.
8 seconds out of every 5 minutes is not something a class should be balanced around, ever. especially with how little it impacts the battle. Blizz, Devs, GC, please, do SOMETHING with it or get rid of it! I don't care what. Anything to make it matter or go away.

EDIT::: Regarding Holy Damage and high armor targets.

Since when have paladins been weak versus high armor?


Considering how 4.0.1 is, this is a fair question. I'm sure you're referring, at least mostly, to using HoW while under Avenging Wrath. I keep forgetting to mention this since, in my own mind, I find AW+HoW to be so ridiculously OP that it would be foolish to get used to it and to simply push it into the back of my mind until the inevitable nerf. So yeah, let me rephrase.

WITHOUT AW+HOW we need some anti-armor burst damage. That's all I'm saying. If AW+HoW stays, then forget the armor burst thing and just concentrate on the dispels and mobility.


Edited by Buhamut on 11/5/2010 12:13 PM PDT
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Interesting
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The Themes reflect the expansion.

It would be weird to be in the Cataclysm Expansion with an Illidan Theme.
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85 Human Paladin
4440
Agreed with a few of those.

We need quite a few changes before we start season 9
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100 Human Paladin
12055
Agreed with a few of those.

We need quite a few changes before we start season 9


If you have criticisms, let's hear em. Won't do any good to just let bad changes sit there.
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You can't expect them to add all-new spells at this point.


It would be nice if they could do that change that was mentioned where cleanse removes snares on self or reduce the deadzone of LAotL though. We also need better tools for spell damage mitigation since cleanse can't remove setup spells anymore. Glyphed DP might work, but I'm afraid it won't be enough... unless they nerf spellcleaves, which they probably should.

Our mobility wouldn't be such a problem if our holy power generation and therefore our healing wasn't tied to having a reasonable uptime.
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85 Human Paladin
4440
Dude I just wanted to test the new stuff here. I'm no help for feedback atm :(
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Since when have paladins been weak versus high armor?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8490
After they made Judgement our weakest ability. Currently it's only marginally stronger than Holy Wrath in PvP if you're using full stack SoT (good luck) and you have more than 2 people within 10 yards of you. Also after they reduced the proc chance on Art of War

Holy Brakeout can be renamed Exoneration. I love that it can be silenced, keeps the eb and flow and gives another move we can use to force their GCD in a utility cd rather than a DPS one.

Swift Punishment I find very interesting. Gives a much needed restraint on our dispel problems, but I'm fairly certain they simply haven't done the balance pass on those yet. Having a mastery that is dispelable is... laughable at best, and really seems more of a "it'll be fixed before release (srsly)" rather than a problem they're ignoring. I like the idea, and you probably meant 40 second cooldown, and after they fix our dispel bugz (as I really think they are bugz) might want to look into that becoming more of a Thorns cooldown instead a CC rather than damage, reduce the uptime, and give it charge based (5 or so) knockdown to any inc damage for the next 10 seconds or so. 40 second CD seems apt.

Hallowed Strike: Finally, something actually skill based in our "skill based" rotation.
Does the priest have +% armor or +% movement buff? Is that War using a sword and board atm? These questions are skill based. Heat of the moment decisions. Keep TV as the higher damaging attack, and give us another finisher that does more to high armor opponents, I love it, a choice that requires skill. Well done.

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90 Dwarf Paladin
17120
I honestly don't feel like we need changes currently. People keep complaining about dispels, but that's not a -ret- issue, that's a gamewide issue. We aren't the only ones that suffer from it by any means. I've not had any mobility issues that weren't already there in WotLK, and I feel much better balanced now with the interrupt. I really love the feel of current ret, we're a support spec still but at the same time we have some new tools.

Love the current ret.
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100 Human Paladin
12055

Swift Punishment I find very interesting. Gives a much needed restraint on our dispel problems, but I'm fairly certain they simply haven't done the balance pass on those yet. Having a mastery that is dispelable is... laughable at best, and really seems more of a "it'll be fixed before release (srsly)" rather than a problem they're ignoring. I like the idea, and you probably meant 40 second cooldown, and after they fix our dispel bugz (as I really think they are bugz) might want to look into that becoming more of a Thorns cooldown instead a CC rather than damage, reduce the uptime, and give it charge based (5 or so) knockdown to any inc damage for the next 10 seconds or so. 40 second CD seems apt.


No, I meant a cooldown of 4 seconds. This lets the paladin "do battle" with the dispeler so he can actually keep his buffs up. Think about it, if you want to keep Zeal or AW up or BOTH, then 2 seconds isn't gonna mean much. If you're willing to waste the GCD so you can use your buffs for one more round while they have a dedicated dispeler on you, well that's a judgment call. Either use the cooldown to keep your buffs or do your damage or heal your wounds. You also have to spend 5% of your mana. So even if the dispeler isn't getting your buffs, it isn't without a cost to you. And if the dispeler is determined and bone-headed, let him keep smashing his head against you without using CCs.

And they fixed HoL to be non-magic a while ago.
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100 Human Paladin
12055
I honestly don't feel like we need changes currently. People keep complaining about dispels, but that's not a -ret- issue, that's a gamewide issue. We aren't the only ones that suffer from it by any means. I've not had any mobility issues that weren't already there in WotLK, and I feel much better balanced now with the interrupt. I really love the feel of current ret, we're a support spec still but at the same time we have some new tools.

Love the current ret.


Uh, really? We lost self stun removal, so mobility was hurt, and while dispels are -currently- a gamewide issue, it's also -always- been a paladin issue that needed addressing.

And support spec? What? So because we have these easily dispelled buffs on 20 second cooldowns and heals that require us to A) burn 1/4-1/2 our mana bar or B) Melee for 4-12 seconds and sacrifice our biggest damage, then we must be a support class, rather than some confused monstrosity with no actual direction?
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80 Troll Hunter
8300
Could be worse. Could be in our boat.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8490

Swift Punishment I find very interesting. Gives a much needed restraint on our dispel problems, but I'm fairly certain they simply haven't done the balance pass on those yet. Having a mastery that is dispelable is... laughable at best, and really seems more of a "it'll be fixed before release (srsly)" rather than a problem they're ignoring. I like the idea, and you probably meant 40 second cooldown, and after they fix our dispel bugz (as I really think they are bugz) might want to look into that becoming more of a Thorns cooldown instead a CC rather than damage, reduce the uptime, and give it charge based (5 or so) knockdown to any inc damage for the next 10 seconds or so. 40 second CD seems apt.


No, I meant a cooldown of 4 seconds. This lets the paladin "do battle" with the dispeler so he can actually keep his buffs up. Think about it, if you want to keep Zeal or AW up or BOTH, then 2 seconds isn't gonna mean much. If you're willing to waste the GCD so you can use your buffs for one more round while they have a dedicated dispeler on you, well that's a judgment call. Either use the cooldown to keep your buffs or do your damage or heal your wounds. You also have to spend 5% of your mana. So even if the dispeler isn't getting your buffs, it isn't without a cost to you. And if the dispeler is determined and bone-headed, let him keep smashing his head against you without using CCs.

And they fixed HoL to be non-magic a while ago.


In that case, then, I agree. Was that fix pushed through live or Beta? Either way, I missed the Swift Punishment actually being dispellable part, hence why I thought the uptime was too high. I like the sound of that even more, then.
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100 Human Paladin
12055
Since when have paladins been weak versus high armor?

Considering how 4.0.1 is, this is a fair question. I'm sure you're referring, at least mostly, to using HoW while under Avenging Wrath. I keep forgetting to mention this since, in my own mind, I find AW+HoW to be so ridiculously OP that it would be foolish to get used to it and to simply push it into the back of my mind until the inevitable nerf. So yeah, let me rephrase.
WITHOUT AW+HOW we need some anti-armor burst damage. That's all I'm saying. If AW+HoW stays, then forget the armor burst thing and just concentrate on the dispels and mobility.

edit* Left an edit in here for any CMs or Devs to read.
Edited by Buhamut on 11/5/2010 12:06 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
5190
How is Ret weak versus armor?

Holy damage rolls me in BGs.
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Uh, really? We lost self stun removal, so mobility was hurt, and while dispels are -currently- a gamewide issue, it's also -always- been a paladin issue that needed addressing.

And support spec? What? So because we have these easily dispelled buffs on 20 second cooldowns and heals that require us to A) burn 1/4-1/2 our mana bar or B) Melee for 4-12 seconds and sacrifice our biggest damage, then we must be a support class, rather than some confused monstrosity with no actual direction?


Using LAotL intelligently can be fairly significant, barring the rare times when you're immediately dispelled and snared. I'm able to get into melee range about as well as I always have.

Pretty much all forms of utility can be countered in some way or another. Ret's offhealing and utility still makes a fair impact, even if an attentive opponent might be able to make quick work of it. Granted I'm not putting much stock in what I see at 80, good or bad, but I'm not seeing this 'sky is falling' scenario that keeps getting painted on the forums.

Overall we're at about the same place we were before the patch, balance is about as bad as it was before, it's a poor idea to judge things that are tuned for 85, and there's still significant balance passes going on. When I see calls for drastic changes or powerful new abilities, I just don't get where the actual need is coming from.
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After they made Judgement our weakest ability. Currently it's only marginally stronger than Holy Wrath in PvP if you're using full stack SoT (good luck) and you have more than 2 people within 10 yards of you. Also after they reduced the proc chance on Art of War


So we only have one holy attack that hits really big (HoW). We also have a bunch of smaller hitting holy damage that trickles in throughout. I've yet to notice high armor opponents being a significant challenge to ret.
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100 Human Paladin
12055

Using LAotL intelligently can be fairly significant, barring the rare times when you're immediately dispelled and snared. I'm able to get into melee range about as well as I always have.

Pretty much all forms of utility can be countered in some way or another. Ret's offhealing and utility still makes a fair impact, even if an attentive opponent might be able to make quick work of it. Granted I'm not putting much stock in what I see at 80, good or bad, but I'm not seeing this 'sky is falling' scenario that keeps getting painted on the forums.

Overall we're at about the same place we were before the patch, balance is about as bad as it was before, it's a poor idea to judge things that are tuned for 85, and there's still significant balance passes going on. When I see calls for drastic changes or powerful new abilities, I just don't get where the actual need is coming from.


Before the patch I could self-cleanse and remove stuns off myself and others. I'll get cleanse back (for ALOT for mana) but stuns, fears, etc are still going to put me right back to there I was. And bubble was reduced by 4 seconds and yet battles are supposed to last longer. I don't get it. Our heals are not amazing. They are decidedly weak and costly to the point where you have to ask yourself why you didn't simply go Holy instead. And Prot is able to do respectable damage while staying alive far longer and more utility. Avenger's Shield is amazing. Ret doesn't actually have anything amazing like that. I've been over why dispels are killing us.

I just don't know what more I can do or say on the matter. It's not ok and it doesn't look like it's going to be.
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100 Human Paladin
12055
After they made Judgement our weakest ability. Currently it's only marginally stronger than Holy Wrath in PvP if you're using full stack SoT (good luck) and you have more than 2 people within 10 yards of you. Also after they reduced the proc chance on Art of War

So we only have one holy attack that hits really big (HoW). We also have a bunch of smaller hitting holy damage that trickles in throughout. I've yet to notice high armor opponents being a significant challenge to ret.

I have a post on the old forums that addresses this.
Judgement is piddly. PIDDLY. Holy Wrath, too. More piddly the more people around you. That leaves hammer of wrath. Only good for an execute, or usable 4 times max (And if lucky) every 2 minutes with Avenging Wrath.
All of the rest is seals/seal of command, which is more piddly than Judgement unless you use seal of truth, which is incredibly unwieldy in pvp and stops use of repent on the target.
Exorcism only works if you apply physical damage via melee hits. 20% chance per white swing only. Nothing else procs it. 20% damage means one in every 5 swings. Each swing averaging 2k on an armored target means 10k physical non-crit damage must happen on average for every 8k holy damage from exorcism. You need to power Exo's holy damage with even more physical damage.
Which means most of our damage comes from Crusader Strike, Melee hits, and Templar's Verdict.
So no, in PVP most of our damage is not holy.

Any implied tone was toward who I was quoting at the time, not you. :p
Edited by Buhamut on 11/5/2010 12:24 PM PDT
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