New Forum Smell = New Ret QQ Smell!

1 Human Warrior

As I said, this is an argument I no longer bother with. I want to play an offensive character in PvP, and hence, I do not play Ret.

From playing on the Beta, yeah, they honestly did not add in enough survivability to the class, and there is still some lacking offense. Its not all that bad, actually, its kind of the same as live, being pretty vague here. You aren't an offensive threat on Beta, but partnered up with someone, you will bring the support for them to, well, kill.
When you see things in actual play, like Heroic leap, you go wow, this would of been perfect for paladins. A way for me to either get into, or quickly get out of combat. This is still something paladins lack. (Remember the paladin Q&A? Thunderstorm, blink, charge, shadow step, paladins don't get these) I really don't want people to think to much into this, but I, and I think others, were under the impression that paladins were going to get a lot more offensive in this expansion, at least I feel that way judging on how GC was talking before.

Adding in a interrupt was huge, finally we can kick people, I am very grateful for that. But there are still problems paladins face. I think some of those biggest ones are these:

1.) Glyphs for almost the whole class are not up to par with other classes. Just go through the *updated* beta glyphs for paladins and read how many are simply a mana reduction glyph. (These types of talents have been removed from the game, why do glyphs have to stay?)

2.) Divine Protection being Dispelled. This obviously must have been an over look from blizzard. Every caster can dispel this move some how, and trust me, when a shaman or mage is casting on you, your buffs won't be around long.

3.) LAotL, although is good, isn't enough to be our single gap closer. Yes its good to move out for defensive purposes, but even a 1 second snare will cancel this buff out. But you have cleanse, you say? Yes, we do have cleanse again (kindof why I said ret plays very similar to what it does now) but even so, since LAotL has such a short duration in that one second of being snared, you feel as it the buff had not even went on. And heaven forbid you use Judgment for one of its other purposes, (mana, damage, Divine Purpose) if you use it a second before someone blinks, you are not going to see that mage ever again, I'm sorry, that spell is just to over loaded. (I honestly believe if ret had a gap closer on a longer cooldown, this spell would be fine, but as I've said I don't think this can carry the weight of being the only gap closer. And with spells being at 40 yards now (judgment is 30) oh man, I hate you warlocks.... all I can say about that) >:(

4.) Hand of Freedom. Although it is amazing on Ret, and yes its 10 seconds out of every 20. Its one, to easily dispelled for being such a life line to ret, and two, its way to over powered on warriors. It has once again became the "haha you can never CC me spell". This is why it got nerfed before.

5.) Lack of ways to break CC. Its no secret rets got hit pretty hard with the lost of those talents, but to be honest, this is almost unplayable. Being the only melee without a way to become immune to something is pretty harsh, even if it requires a cooldown. I know bubble is there, and it would be fine if it didn't still reduce damage by 50%. (On beta, bubble is pretty weak, you are never going to die instantly, 8 seconds on a 5 min cooldown is nothing, you basically wouldn't have killed someone in those 8 seconds anyways and you aren't being healed to full) I think bubble should be 8 seconds on a 3 min cooldown and no 50% damage reduction, again in group pvp, you aren't killing someone in 8 seconds.

Being hit by 8 second fears with out a cloak, berserk, or Lichborne, is not very fun, plain and simple. Also, being effected by both disarms and silences. (Dispels, disarms, silences, and stuns, lol I'd hate to fight MPR now >.<) At least HoF stun removal should of stayed, that was something pretty unique to paladins. (yea-yea blink quiet you!)
Edited by Saganos on 11/6/2010 10:43 AM PDT
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1 Human Warrior
6.) Zealotry. Oh yes, even this spell is not as useful in pvp as you may think. If you do manage to not get dispelled, you'd think, wow this spell would be awesome. Unloading the TVs, right? Wrong! Chances are, you will get 2 maybe 3 Crusader Strikes off before this buff fades, from being CC'd or from being kited, or whatever the case may be, its just not as effective as you might think. Also, if you do happen to get full effect of the 20 seconds, chances are you didn't need the cooldown in the first place. :P It is not as powerful as the other Hybrid's final talent, and will defiantly not have as much up time as the others. (also, since it is effected by disarm, dispel shouldn't remove this, sorry anyone who thinks different is wrong.)

7.) Inquisition. Not going into detail with this one because it is simply not used. Prot doesn't use it, holy will never put it on their hotbar, and truthfully, with CCs and whatever, you aren't getting a full 30 seconds of uptime on anyone, its would of been better to hit a TV or WoG. (PvE its not fun or exciting to buff passive damage (seals)) And since Exorcism is based off auto attacks, which again, in pvp doesn't happen to much, you aren't going to see a lot of dps increase. I use it more of a Inquisition - AW - HoW burst cooldown. :) (yay for 4 burst cooldowns!)

8.) Seal of Justice is not used, not sure why its in the game to be completely honest.

9.) Holy Radiance - Not sure if this spell needs a buff or not, but on Beta it heals for 10k over 10 seconds, nothing good, nothing life saving. Not to sure what they plan to do with this move. As of right now, its not noticeable in pvp, its just to weak.

10.) Lastly, cause I think this deserves some QQ! Guardian of Ancient Kings! This spell does not get enough play time. 12 seconds on a 5 min cooldown. The spell is good, finally I can feel like I popped a cooldown and my enemy has to pop a defensive cooldown. No more with, I popped AW get him! "He popped AW get him" Wait what... Its a great move, its an amazing graphic, but like Divine Shield, its length does not justify its cooldown. 30 seconds every 3 min, even if it needs to be adjusted through talent points, would be a more ideal spot for it. Similar to, I don't know, shaman wolves, mage images, druid treants, and death knight gargoyle.

Ret almost there, and again, another expansion closer to catching up to our melee comrades, but from playing at level 85, you still can't help to feel as if you are still lacking behind. This isn't a buff my class to be godly again, to have no weakness ever, its more of acknowledgment of we're almost there, just not there yet.

P.S. Just because this is the truth. If the whole 'We want Ret to be more offensive' idea has changed internally at Blizzard, then maybe the class is where it needs to be. If you aren't supposed to be making someone shake in their boots because you are coming for them, they nailed it perfectly. (And I am truly being honest here and by no way trying to be rude) As ret is now, I feel like the little brother. I'm there with my big brother warrior, sneaking in hits and running away as I give him support. And if that was the goal, bravo you have succeeded. (About time we nerf'd those army of ones! (that was uncalled for and I apologize))

Edited by Saganos on 11/6/2010 10:49 AM PDT
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*head desk* Typed up my long-ass reply to Footz, hit submit, and it disappeared. Great.

Warriors have a glyph to increase charge to 30 yards. Heroic leap will be 40 yards.
Resto druids can glyph insta-roots that goes 30 yards.
Right on priests and holy pals. When I asked I meant combat specs that try to kill instead of heal.

No, I don't want Rets immune to kiting. My suggestion makes it difficult, not impossible. Still feared, incapped, poly'd.

Other classes' Gap Closers are Gap Closers. Yes?/No?

Warrs, 3 gap closer, snares.
DKs, Death Grip along with a snare.
Enh shamans: Wolves and snares
Rogues: stealth entry tricks and root/snare removing sprint that all specs can get, not to mention snares, stuns, incaps out the wazoo

Know else they all have? Snares. And none of their gap-closing methods are effected by roots, snares, or dispels.

Paladins have HoF and a 40% sprint every 7 seconds. HoF's snare removal has been nerfed. HoF used to remove snares off of the debuff bar, so that when it was dispelled the snares stayed gone and the Paladin/whoever free. Now HoF no longer removes snares, they stay on the debuff bar and when HoF disappears, we are snared again by the lingering debuffs. Yes, after it is dispelled too. So dispels hurt HoF even worse than they did before.

We used to close gaps by judging justice and clearing roots, snares, and stuns off of ourselves however we could. And dispels didn't hurt nearly as bad since we had more trash buffs and HoF took the debuffs clean off of us.

I made my suggestion as to how to fix this without copying warriors. Do you have one or do you still believe we are going to be "fine" as HoF bots?
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90 Dwarf Paladin
I disagree on us being HoF bots, that seems like a huge exaggeration.

Warriors can't charge/intercept while rooted, nor can rogues use shadowstep. Assassination and Sub rogues (the 2 pvp specs for rogues) have to give up damage for imp sprint as well, and its only a break, not an immunity. Wolves are on a long cooldown. Deathgrip doesn't actually give you more mobility, it just brings your target to you, which is a subtle but significant difference. I'm disregarding the snares issue, since we'll have a teammate with one 95% of the time.

Your mobility idea is basically a feral druid shapeshift on a 20 second cooldown with a cast time and more resource intensive. Kind of lame to basically copy another classes signature ability and make it harder to use.

Dispels, while an issue for ret, aren't -only- a ret issue. Its a gamewide one that's hurting a lot of classes right now. I don't feel the answer is to buff ret against dispel, but to nerf dispels instead. This helps more classes than just us, and would make for a more balanced game.

Your holy damage finisher idea would probably end up eventually replacing TV. I can't see a point anywhere damage-wise where TV would still be better in PVE (bosses have a natural amount of armor) while keeping with the idea of having TV and your finisher for low/high armor targets respectivley. It would either be underpowered and not hit for enough damage to be worth using or it'd do too much and be better in PVE. Maybe make Inquisition a holy damage DoT? They're talking about redesigning inquisition anyways, and this would make it harder to drop out of the rotation.
*head desk* Typed up my long-ass reply to Footz, hit submit, and it disappeared. Great.

-hate- that.
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By not being effected by roots snares, I meant during the time it is active. But roots quickly break, likely before the rooter is out of range. And rogues are much better protected against CC while stealthed, with many more tools to control the opponent than Paladins. Wolves are on a long cooldown but also last a good while, not to mention the aforementioned snares for all of them. And yes, Death Grip is a gap closer, but the best one. It does not put you into the enemy pack, it brings an enemy into your pack.

And how is that mobility any different from casting HoF on yourself, other than you remain immune to the effects? If that's what you consider to be sufficient difference to not be a "copy" of another classe's signature ability, then I say it is sufficiently different in that it also provides a 40% sprint for 4 seconds, druids do not when they shapeshift every 1.5 seconds. And my idea was 1 HP. We need more HP using abilities, otherwise the choice is too easy.

Dispels have always been an issue for paladins due to how few buffs we have and how powerful they are. Yes, dispels need a nerf, but even then we'll still be the class weakest to them by a large margin.

And maybe there is a happy middle ground for a holy strike to be powerful enough to consider over TV against armor in PVP, and weak enough to consider TV being better in PVE? Or maybe we could have PVE encounters where BOTH have a place? *gasp*!

And yes, HoF bots. HoP sometimes too. Cause that's the only awesome, unique things we bring atm, save bubble which is good 2.6% of the time. And by "good" I mean immune, but useless damage-wise, and with too little mana to think about healing.
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80 Blood Elf Hunter
I wish hunters united like this ..esp looking towards the new arena season.

You guys need some things to be sure, I think many classes do to be competitive in the upcoming pvp season.
Edited by Vileintent on 11/6/2010 3:31 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Paladin
I've played a rogue since pre-bc. Stealth is hardly a mobility buff, in fact you move -slower- during it.

Our utility is incredible when not dispelled. That's why its dispellable. If it wasn't, it'd be nerfed either in effectiveness or duration.

It would be incredibly difficult to make a holy finisher worth using over TV without making it always better. The reason I suggest a DoT is because that's something we could keep up while still letting TV retain most of its value, and it would have PVP uses such as preventing bandages and restealths and giving us a little more OOMF during burst by setting it up beforehand and bursting with it up.

We bring more than HoF and HoP. We also have HoSac, repentance, decent damage (and I'm not referring to our damage during wings when I say that), WoG heals, an interrupt, and HoJ.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
Love the enthusiasm of getting a ret thread on these new forums so fast, but I'm not a fan of those abilities. The things I think Ret really needs right now are pretty simple:

Long Arm of the Law be activated against targets from 10 yards out insted of 15 and increase movement speed by 60% for 4 seconds insted of 45%

Debuffs and buffs like wings/hoj/rep and our mastery changed from magic to physical so that everything we do can't be purged/spellstolen/dispelled right away. I die inside everytime I pop wings and get 5 people spam dispelling me =*(

Holy Wrath out of the single target rotation - it feels really out of place even for just a filler ability

Eye for an Eye put a stacking snare on casters.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
1.) Glyphs for almost the whole class are not up to par with other classes. Just go through the *updated* beta glyphs for paladins and read how many are simply a mana reduction glyph. (These types of talents have been removed from the game, why do glyphs have to stay?)

This is one thing I did want to touch on, seeing as it's been something of an ongoing disappointment for me. In WotLK, Paladin glyphs were boring and laughable, and not even really all that powerful - the most "powerful" one was the 10 expertise SoV glyph, which one could outgear without too much effort. And mostly in WotLK the glyphs were bad and they acknowledged that class glyphs were pretty widely separated in effectiveness.

Jump to Cata and the glyph updates, and Paladin glyphs look almost exactly the same. I mean, what the heck? Just reading off of the major glyphs I have on my shadow priest right now:

1. Increases Inner Fire's armor boost by 50%.
2. Reduces Psychic Horror's cooldown by half (60 seconds).
3. Reduces Fade's cooldown by 9 seconds - with talents, this is a snare breaker.

I don't think one can overstate how significant these glyphs are for PvP. They're powerful and unique effects that have nothing to do with damage or mana costs - only my prime glyphs increase damage. A quick glance at Paladin glyphs show maybe one - Dazing Shield - that has about the same kind of impact, and it isn't even a Ret glyph. Most everything else is either a mana cost reduction or something else similarly minor that one might expect out of a minor glyph, not a major.
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