Smite Disc

90 Gnome Priest
11350
I'm not saying it's a total waste of mana, but it's still gonna be slightly cheaper to hit heal during that time. The difference isn't massive, but it's a difference none the less.
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85 Draenei Priest
3910
I'm not saying it's a total waste of mana, but it's still gonna be slightly cheaper to hit heal during that time. The difference isn't massive, but it's a difference none the less.


From a pure "mana vs mana" perspective, sure. But from a HPM standpoint, the spells are still roughly equivalent since Atonement generally heals for slightly more than Heal does. And it's also more HPS since Smite has a 1.88 sec cast time (on my bars), and Heal is a 2.35 cast time.

I'm not saying you should never cast Heal. It stacks Grace and removes Weakened Soul and you can target who you want. I'm just saying that even at after five stacks, Smite vs. Heal is still a bit of a toss-up depending on your needs at the time.

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90 Human Priest
15270
I'm not saying it's a total waste of mana, but it's still gonna be slightly cheaper to hit heal during that time. The difference isn't massive, but it's a difference none the less.

From a pure "mana vs mana" perspective, sure. But from a HPM standpoint, the spells are still roughly equivalent since Atonement generally heals for slightly more than Heal does. And it's also more HPS since Smite has a 1.88 sec cast time (on my bars), and Heal is a 2.35 cast time.
I'm not saying you should never cast Heal. It stacks Grace and removes Weakened Soul and you can target who you want. I'm just saying that even at after five stacks, Smite vs. Heal is still a bit of a toss-up depending on your needs at the time.

And Grace is important as is reducing the CD on WS. So what we have here is an admittedly more mana efficient (in a time when mana efficiency is pretty important per the design), more controllable and reliable healing style vs a little bit of dps and a buff, and a heal that goes to the lowest health party member which may or may not be where it is needed. And because of the issues with targeting, may go nowhere at all.
I love the idea of Atonement but right now it seems like it isn't quite there.
Edited by Beatific on 11/7/2010 5:27 AM PST
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85 Gnome Priest
5655
The nerf to Archangel really makes sense if you work out the math, so bear with me on this one.

If you work out the numbers between Atonement and Heal, the go-to efficiency spell, the work out to be just about dead even.

Heal currently costs 1853 mana and heals for about 6k on the beta

With full raid buffs, I generally have around 100k in mana. With that mana pool, the returns from Archangel work out like this:

(Remember, each stack of Evangelism reduces the mana cost of Smite by 6%)

Net mana loss at 1 stack: -2088 (1000 - 3088)
Net mana loss at 2 stacks: -3990 (2000 - 3088 - 2902)
Net mana loss at 3 stacks: -5707 (3000 - 3088 - 2902 - 2717)
Net mana loss at 4 stacks: -7239 (4000 - 3088 - 2902 - 2717 - 2532)
Net mana loss at 5 stacks: -8585 (5000 - 3088 - 2902 - 2717 - 2532 - 2346)

Keep in mind that even at five stacks, Smite only costs 2161 to cast, which is still pretty darn efficient without the mana returns. And it also lowers the cost of Penance.

So with the returns from Archangel figured in, the cost of each Smite looks like this:

1 stack Smite cost: 2088
2 stack Smite cost: 1995
3 stack Smite cost: 1902
4 stack Smite cost: 1809
5 stack Smite cost: 1717

So at five stacks, it's actually 136 mana cheaper than Heal. I think the nerf was made because at 85, the mana regen would have be completely out of control at higher gear levels, much the way that Rapture worked out in WotLK. They're bringing the mana returns down to make the two spells comparable mana-wise. They want there to be a choice between the two spells.

Even without the mana edge, a few things that still give Smite/Atonement the edge in my book:

1) The cast time is slightly faster. Smite is a 1.88 cast time (on my bars), and Heal is a 2.35 cast time.

2) With raid buffs, Smite heals actually land for maybe 5 to 10% more healing than Heal does.

3) It gives you a 15% healing boost when you're done using it.

4) It lowers the cooldown on Penance, which is the best heal-per-mana spell we've got. And it is constantly on CD.

5) It also lowers the mana cost of Penance by about 800 mana when Evangelism is at full stacks.

Now after getting my 5 Smites in, I definitely go back to using Heal until Archangel comes off CD again. It makes sense from a mana-perspective and it also stacks Grace and removes Weakened Soul.

The bottom line is, I think that there's a real give and take between both Smite and Heal now. And it makes Discipline very interesting to play now.


Thank you for that, I"m not a theory crafter and have been trying to figure out how this will work. That was a clear and understandable explanation.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5330
I am a healer to heal. The past has shown that when you start seeing DPS talents popping up in a spec, people think it should be able compete with all the rest. Discipline was already a unique healing (proactive) spec and there was plenty of avenues to go down without making some sort of quasi-DPS spec out of it.

Back in early tBC people were trying to whine Blizzard into making a Smite DPS for priests.

In my opinion, Archangel and Evangelism was put in for Shadow priests to fill out their "off-spec" points since Blizzard is loathe to force players to spend all their points in one spec.
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85 Draenei Priest
3910
I am a healer to heal. The past has shown that when you start seeing DPS talents popping up in a spec, people think it should be able compete with all the rest. Discipline was already a unique healing (proactive) spec and there was plenty of avenues to go down without making some sort of quasi-DPS spec out of it.

Back in early tBC people were trying to whine Blizzard into making a Smite DPS for priests.

In my opinion, Archangel and Evangelism was put in for Shadow priests to fill out their "off-spec" points since Blizzard is loathe to force players to spend all their points in one spec.


I personally don't care that Atonement causes damage at all. That's just bonus. If we had a spell called Atonement and it performed the exact same function without any of the damage dealt, I'd still use it. Why? Beacuse what I do care about is that with Archangel, Smite becomes the most efficient heal in the Disc priest's toolbox. AND it scales in efficiency with gear.

Try not to look at "precedent" and focus on the math. Right now, according to the numbers, it's a very valuable healing tool for Discipline.
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71 Blood Elf Priest
1100
I like it but my groups always kill the trash or boss before i have a chance to get full stacks.
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81 Blood Elf Priest
3470
I have to say playing the new disc spec has been a great level heal. It brings back the amusement of queing in for dungeons just to see how many times you don't have to stop for a mana break through the use of smite, Atonement and AA. Reckon I'm rolling a lvl 43 disc healer, its been a lot of fun.
But all that aside, reading over this thread and seeing what Fatherfranz , Believe, and many of you have contributed towards your view and the overall mechanics of how these abilities work when it comes to healing has been very informative. It'll be interesting to see what happens once Cata is released and the leveling and new gear allot for new playing circumstances.

I have yet to roll in 4.0 as disc for raiding in WoTLK content, but at this point with cata coming so close, it seems like good practice even though the boss fights, as many of you have mentioned, tend to be a bit more "slower" then the hectic "let me get as many heals off as possible" we've been accustomed to preform in the past: ex: Lord Marrowgar.

But I'm really looking forward to whats in store.
Edited by Xeria on 11/7/2010 12:41 PM PST
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100 Troll Priest
10050
It's been great for leveling my mini priest, but I'm guessing the spec will be completely irrelevant for raiding in Cata.


I have to agree. It's a great time in the low level dungeons, chasing after tanks in heirloom gear. :-D I just wish Evangelism lasted longer for those times when the DPS don't let you get a smite cast.
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
Is the math in favour of Atonement/Evangelism/Archangel factoring in the opportunity cost of the five talent points spent to make the spec? Most Evan/Archangel specs I see give up Mental Agility, which is a significant efficiency loss on ProM, PW: S and Renew (which might be Disc viable now that its crits apply Divine Aegis).

Remember it's only a three-point "loss," since an Atonement build wouldn't take Strength of Soul. And a Smiting Priest has potential to save a lot of mana on Penance costs with Evangelism active.

So the trade can be boiled down to 10% off instants vs. access to more Penances and up to a 30% discount on Penance.
Edited by Believe on 11/7/2010 12:54 PM PST
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
It's a five point loss, since Strength of Soul is perfectly fine equity for tank healing. I'm not sure why you're allowing yourself to write off two talent points so briskly. So instant reduction + more frequent PW: S on tank vs. 30% discount on Penance. Given that Penance is extremely efficient already and ProM/PW: S form such a large core of our healing, Evangelism/Archangel/Atonement seems like a clear loser.

For a Smite build, Smite replaces Heal. You shouldn't cast Heal if you've taken Atonement. So I personally would consider Strength of Soul a waste of 2 talent points for such a build.

And to compare big mana savings on the very efficient Penance to minor mana savings on the extremely efficient POM and the mana-refunding PW:S is a toss-up, for me. =)
Edited by Believe on 11/7/2010 1:27 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
6070
Another thing to mention is that, due to the faster cast speed, a smite build will see more frequent Surge of Light procs.

Not a large factor, yet this thread has covered most of the outstanding ones already.
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100 Human Paladin
6070

It's a five point loss, since Strength of Soul is perfectly fine equity for tank healing. I'm not sure why you're allowing yourself to write off two talent points so briskly. So instant reduction + more frequent PW: S on tank vs. 30% discount on Penance. Given that Penance is extremely efficient already and ProM/PW: S form such a large core of our healing, Evangelism/Archangel/Atonement seems like a clear loser.


Nothing clear about it.

Smite healing:

- 15% more healing 50% of the time (approx)

- 30% less mana cost off penance (granted; only with arch stacked).

- More frequent surge of light procs

- scaling mana returns

- gains benefits from debuffs on the boss/mob

- higher hps, with a faster cast time.

- smart heal; doesn't get sniped

- reduces cd on penance

Heal healing:

- reduces Weakened Soul debuff

- controlled heal

- benefits from and stacks grace

- doesn't not have such a limited range (having the 8yrd counter start at the edge of the hitbox would help a lot)

- (possibly) provides insipration


Now with that said, a smite build will not be very different from a heal build at the end of the day. The one major talent that it skips is Strength of Soul, meaning that if evan is up and you need to direct some steady, graced-up healing on the tank, then there is nothing really stopping you.

http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#bfGorRsbcRMochb

(With adjusts, possibly grabbing veiled shadows)
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5330
I am a healer to heal. The past has shown that when you start seeing DPS talents popping up in a spec, people think it should be able compete with all the rest. Discipline was already a unique healing (proactive) spec and there was plenty of avenues to go down without making some sort of quasi-DPS spec out of it.

Back in early tBC people were trying to whine Blizzard into making a Smite DPS for priests.

In my opinion, Archangel and Evangelism was put in for Shadow priests to fill out their "off-spec" points since Blizzard is loathe to force players to spend all their points in one spec.


I personally don't care that Atonement causes damage at all. That's just bonus. If we had a spell called Atonement and it performed the exact same function without any of the damage dealt, I'd still use it. Why? Beacuse what I do care about is that with Archangel, Smite becomes the most efficient heal in the Disc priest's toolbox. AND it scales in efficiency with gear.

Try not to look at "precedent" and focus on the math. Right now, according to the numbers, it's a very valuable healing tool for Discipline.


I agree that it is on par with Heal, and slightly less of a resource cost, and if I was mainly a dungeon runner I would likely pick it up. However, my problem sits with the "costs" you pay; for example, you need to glyph in the 18% hit, use the GCDs, and are up against an 8 yard range.

That being said, I have to be honest. It's a good talent since it's usefulness is more subjective than anything else. That's real choice.
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100 Human Paladin
6070

I agree that it is on par with Heal, and slightly less of a resource cost, and if I was mainly a dungeon runner I would likely pick it up. However, my problem sits with the "costs" you pay; for example, you need to glyph in the 18% hit, use the GCDs, and are up against an 8 yard range.
That being said, I have to be honest. It's a good talent since it's usefulness is more subjective than anything else. That's real choice.


One of the things to note when looking at these "costs" is the alternative to them. Finding two more decent disc pve glyphs is hard enough, let alone not glyphing for divine accuracy. The 5 tp investments sounds high, until you realize you don't have that many other options.

EDIT: actually I'm having a very hard time coming up with a major glyph layout for disc that doesn't include Divine accuracy. Maybe Holy Nova and dispel? idk.
Edited by Fridays on 11/7/2010 2:47 PM PST
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100 Human Paladin
6070
Does Archangel increase the healing done by Atonement? My own observations on my mini-priest is that it doesn't. This makes it very problematic to count the Archangel buff as a boon to Smite healing. Losing Mental Agility impacts two of your major healing tools (PW: S and ProM) and a potential new tool (Renew, since Renew crits now stack DA). Smite healing fails to apply Inspiration and Divine Aegis, which means we're failing in two of our major responsibilities as tank healers/raid mitigators. It'll be a fun thing for five mans, but that's where it ends.
Edit: Mass Dispel, Dispel, Holy Nova. Those are pretty clear glyphs.

Edit No. 2: Psychic Scream is also outstanding utility.


Evan doesn't increase the healing of atonement, however archangel does.

Smite healing DOES apply divine Aegis. More frequently then heal, in fact, due to the 5% crit debuff of the mob.

It does not apply inspiration, however if you have a resto sham or holy priest that is a minor issue. Even if you weren't smite spec'd, you'd probably want to go holy if you really wanted inspiration due to the higher uptime.

You can pick up mental agi if you need: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#bfGorRsbcRMochb

Just remember, smite healing doesn't mean you only smite. It's an alternative to hitting Heal on melee groups (where the damage tends to be) and grants boons to your other heals
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85 Tauren Priest
5875
Does Archangel increase the healing done by Atonement? My own observations on my mini-priest is that it doesn't. This makes it very problematic to count the Archangel buff as a boon to Smite healing.

Archangel is not designed as a boon to Smite healing. It is intended as partial compensation for the potential downside of Atonement's uncontrollable nature, and the small mental tax of switching from trying to get in range of enemy targets to targeting allies with heals.

Losing Mental Agility impacts two of your major healing tools (PW: S and ProM) and a potential new tool (Renew, since Renew crits now stack DA).

Again, it's a small savings on a couple hyperefficient heals versus a large discount on one very efficient heal (that you get to cast more often). It's not as clear-cut as you're trying to make it. =]

Smite healing fails to apply Inspiration and Divine Aegis, which means we're failing in two of our major responsibilities as tank healers/raid mitigators
Atonement criticals apply Divine Aegis. Not sure on Inspiration, but it's not really that big a deal because A) you're never going to be responding to raid damage by Healing your way through 25 health bars, and B) raid damage of the physical variety is quite rare indeed. ;)

@ Fridays: Archangel does not increase the healing of Atonement. Evangelism does, by increasing damage dealt by Smite.
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