Mind Spike.

100 Human Paladin
5765

Great idea. I wouldn't mind a SMALL penalty for using MS with DoTs. Hopefully if they adopt this idea they wouldn't make the penalty too grave.


True but they also can't make it too light either because MS will be competing with MF for a spot in a regular rotation (which is something they don't want).

IF:

no dots: MS does 100dps, MB does 90dps, MF does 70dps (obviously made up numbers)

THEN:

w/ dots: MS does 70dps, MD does 90dps, MF does 77dps (MF glyph). Outside of Dark evan MS would have no place in a regular single target rotation, while remaining the premiere DD for add burns. The disparity between the dps of MF and MB necessitates that a fairly extreme delta should exist for MS to have such a multi-lateral role.
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86 Gnome Warlock
6840
One could argue (and several have) that Blizzard is trying to incorporate too much into Mind Spike. Its roles in PvE and PvP are very different, so it's become a balancing headache. It seems currently unable to make both PvE'rs and PvP'rs simultaneously happy, and with Cataclysm's release only a month away, we're not going to see the two different spells this perhaps should have been.

I'm strictly PvP on my priest, and I agree with many posters in this thread: Mind Spike's current DoT removal is very problematic for its stated PvP role (used while locked out of shadow) and the supporting PvP talents (Mind Melt and Paralysis), as the opportunity cost of losing DoT damage in exchange for a 4 second root/controlled burst/pressure on an interrupter is too great.

I don't, however, think the answer is to tack the high threat component back on and thus make it a liability in PvE. That's not fair to raiders.

I would welcome a mechanic that reduces Mind Spike's damage per DoT on the target, be it a glyph or baseline. I think it would go a long way towards solving the issues that PvP shadow priests have with the spell.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230


I don't, however, think the answer is to tack the high threat component back on and thus make it a liability in PvE. That's not fair to raiders.

I would welcome a mechanic that reduces Mind Spike's damage per DoT on the target, be it a glyph or baseline. I think it would go a long way towards solving the issues that PvP shadow priests have with the spell.


I don't think high threat would be unfair to raiders considering we have omen as well as mind flay. It would make a more involved rotation if we tried to maximise spikes without pulling threat.
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85 Dwarf Priest
9090
Dark Archangel should let us spam Mind Spike without it removing our dots.

It be like turning into an Arcane Mage for 20 seconds haha.

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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
Dark Archangel should let us spam Mind Spike without it removing our dots.

It be like turning into an Arcane Mage for 20 seconds haha.


Interesting idea. I think that they would need to increase the damage granted from dark archangel for mind spike specifically. But I like it. I really want more usage of spike.
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85 Draenei Priest
6365
True but they also can't make it too light either because MS will be competing with MF for a spot in a regular rotation (which is something they don't want).


Not necessarily true. Mind Flay will scale with the Mastery bonus, while Mind Spike's scaling is dependent upon random procs from SW:P or MF ticks. I'm a bit concerned that with the current state of Mind Spike, we'll see Mind Flay filling the roll it was supposed to have once we're past the first tier or two or Cata.

Personally, I think the devs should just turn Mind Spike into an Arcane Blast clone and be done with it.
Edited by Javaed on 11/6/2010 8:55 AM PDT
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86 Gnome Warlock
6840
I don't think high threat would be unfair to raiders considering we have omen as well as mind flay. It would make a more involved rotation if we tried to maximise spikes without pulling threat.

But Mind Spike isn't a rotational spell; that's presumably the main reason it's received the adjustments it has. It's not intended to replace Mind Flay in the PvE or PvP rotation.

In PvE, Mind Spike is for burn targets and adds that need to die fast (10 seconds and under). In such a limited window of time, Omen barely even becomes a consideration. If Mind Spike had a high threat component, its use could cause serious problem for tanks trying to pick up said adds. Shadow priests would be forced to sit there and evaluate whether or not they can Mind Spike a target that needs to die immediately...that isn't just counter intuitive, it's totally not fun.

Good shadow priests would learn the nuances of these situations and be able to manage the high threat/kill the aggro'd target before it reaches them, but more often, raid leaders and tanks would simply say "Yeah, don't use that spell". Every class has certain abilities restricted at certain times (i.e. "don't AoE here"), but burning adds down fast is what Mind Spike is designed for in PvE.

Your concerns about Mind Spike in PvP are entirely legitimate, but I don't agree that the solution is to put high threat back on the spell. It's probably safe to say Blizzard feels the same way, as they have moved on from that idea.

What I said about high threat Mind Spike being counter intuitive (and not fun) in PvE applies to DoT removing Mind Spike in PvP. It's a big problem, but the solution is not to change the spell in such a way that it makes life difficult for our PvE counterparts. I'd rather see a solution that satisfies both the PvE and PvP sides of the shadow priest community.

Dark Archangel should let us spam Mind Spike without it removing our dots.

This is a cool idea, and tying our controlled burst to a cooldown feels fine from a balance standpoint. I'd still like us to have our reliable root w/ DoT pressure independent of that, however (same goes for when we're locked out of shadow).

Edit: Grammar fix
Edited by Fiir on 11/6/2010 1:49 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13230
I don't think high threat would be unfair to raiders considering we have omen as well as mind flay. It would make a more involved rotation if we tried to maximise spikes without pulling threat.

But Mind Spike isn't a rotational spell; that's presumably the main reason it's received the adjustments it has. It's not intended to replace Mind Flay in the PvE or PvP rotation.
In PvE, Mind Spike is for burn targets and adds that need to die fast (10 seconds and under). In such a limited window of time, Omen barely even becomes a consideration. If Mind Spike had a high threat component, its use could cause serious problem for tanks trying to pick up said adds. Shadow priests would be forced to sit there and evaluate whether or not they can Mind Spike a target that needs to die immediately...that isn't just counter intuitive, it's totally not fun.
Good shadow priests would learn the nuances of these situations and be able to manage the high threat/kill the aggro'd target before it reaches them, but more often, raid leaders and tanks would simply say "Yeah, don't use that spell". Every class has certain abilities restricted at certain times (i.e. "don't AoE here"), but burning adds down fast is what Mind Spike is designed for in PvE.
Your concerns about Mind Spike in PvP are entirely legitimate, but I don't agree that the solution is to put high threat back on the spell. It's probably safe to say Blizzard feels the same way, as they have moved on from that idea.
What I said about high threat Mind Spike being counter intuitive (and not fun) in PvE applies to DoT removing Mind Spike in PvP. It's a big problem, but the solution is not to change the spell in such a way that it makes life difficult for our PvE counterparts. I'd rather see a solution that satisfies both the PvE and PvP sides of the shadow priest community.
Dark Archangel should let us spam Mind Spike without it removing our dots.

This is a cool idea, and tying our controlled burst to a cooldown feels fine from a balance standpoint. I'd still like us to have our reliable root w/ DoT pressure independent of that, however (same goes for when we're locked out of shadow).
Edit: Grammar fix


Good points. I didn't really mean that I want high threat, but it was more of "I'd rather have high threat then what we have now". Our biggest issues right now is the negative effect of Mind Spike and the fact that Mind Spike consumes shadow orbs when our entire mastery (which will be a very large portion of our dps) is tied to mind blast w/ orbs.
Edited by Bieberfever on 11/6/2010 2:15 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
13900
I think the reason it's not "high threat" as a penalty is this:

If a damage dealer has an ability that's the highest DPS but is high threat, they usually tend to shift the blame to us tanks and call us bad when we can't hold aggro over them.
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85 Goblin Priest
11370
Currently when thinking of the use of Mind Spike, I see it good as clearing dots to stop dps or to CC but that is about it. I have tried thinking of current fights in WotLK or fights I have watched on the Cataclysm Beta, and I just don't see a use for it in any fight.

Someone could argue the adds on Heroic Saurfang or Heroic Putricide, but thinking back to my original kills of those fights my dot up time became crucial, because the dots were on long enough to make them effective. I haven't seen a single fight on Beta that would warrant Mind Spike spam in order to burn something down over using dots. In order for it to be wanted, the add will need to die between 10-14 seconds to warrant Mind Spike being useful.

I am just afraid Blizzard has been working towards keeping the spell from being OP while keeping it "fun" but in the process has destroyed it.

I believe if Blizzard took out the talents which create Mind Spike giving a buff to other spells, and just stuck with it being used as a spell which is for burst (but not clearing away current dots on the target), I think it will end up becoming a spell people are interested in using more for the original intent of it, aka burst.

In order to do this we would need a change to our talent Mind Melt (if Blizzard is afraid of the spell being to OP in a state of not relieving dots). However, I don't think many people would argue having the talent changed in order to make Mind Spike a viable ability to be used again.

I am just afraid that unless there is some change, the spell will become dead unless we are in Dark Archangel (Dark Evangelism). Then again this could be the intent of Blizzard to just have us use this spell while that is activated, or to clear dots for CC/stop dps.
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