Recent Combat changes in beta build

85 Worgen Rogue
8395
If they insist on using Bandit's Guile implementation as it currently stands, I feel they should lower the ramp up time, and increase the top tier insight duration.
At that point it would be of a little more significant use, help with our damage issues, and likely be able to be timed with cooldowns a little better.
The Mastery? Not sure really. I suppose if they buff it to rediculous levels that it would be okay, but then opens up a myriad of other problems like weapon speed issues. And, if it were working correctly, you really shouldnt *have* to buff it 300% to keep people from avoiding it like the plague.

The idea of aligning all these things and then KAPOW! hitting like a truck for massive damage is cool, and would probably be fun, if the damage part of the equation were there. Also, with the narrow window you're given to align your cooldowns with deep insight, it promptly becomes non-fun trying to manage it. Slightly more leeway would be nice, so if you have 7 seconds on Kill Spree cooldown left, but 5 seconds on Deep Insight remaining.
Edited by Chult on 11/5/2010 12:13 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090
bandits guile should be removed period. its a clunky AT BEST mechaninc that wasnt thought out very well.

I like BG a lot. It promotes thought, planning, and strategic cooldown usage. Once the bugs get fixed (AUGH KILLING SPREE), It's fine. It is not 'boring passive damage' just because it's a % modifier and not activated by hitting a button. It's an actively managed rolling fluctuation in your damage potential, and the ability to pool energy and play within that cycle will separate good rogues from bad.


Main Gauche is just plain terrible they can buff it all they want and it will STILL be terrible because combat REQUIRES a SLOW/FAST set up slow/slow is just horrible and fast/fast is even worse its like they didnt listen to beta testers AT ALL well wait i also have to remember.........


The core mechanic of MG is fine, the problem is linking it to Mastery. It's not about making us use Slow/Slow, it's about creating tension between forces that want us to use weapons at opposite ends of the spectrum to reduce the net impact of the forces in either direction. i.e. the goal is not to make us want slow/slow (or actually, the way MG works, fast/slow or fast/fast), but rather to make us not skip several tiers of gear in favor of using the only 1.3 in the game. (WHY HALLO THAR LPC). If they get MG tuned to the point where a 1.4 and a 1.5 deliver DPS results within a narrow enough band of variance that the only time you have to worry about choosing between them based on speed is when the stats/ilvl are the same, then MG has done it's job.

Of course, this all breaks down when you link the mechanic to a stat that we're going to have our gear drenched in and you end up with proc chances in the 50+% range and all of a sudden you end up wanting a fast MH and a non-dagger Oh to maximize MG damage and it all falls apart.

But the problem there isn't the MG mechanic - which is actually quite clever, and fits the 'flavor' of the Rogue class really well - the problem is that it's tied to the Mastery stat. Make MG a talent. Make some other talent scale with Mastery instead. Boom, Combat is fixed.
Reply Quote
83 Blood Elf Warlock
5250
Bandits Guile and Restless Blades do not fit well together.
Combat potency and Main Gauche also conflict with each other.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090
Bandits Guile and Restless Blades do not fit well together.

In what universe? Bandit's Guile stacks faster, and you get more uptime on +15(30)% damage, the more you use Sinister/Revealing Strike.

Restless Blades reduces cooldowns every time you spend CP's. You only spend CP's proportional to those you gain. In other words, every time you use Sinister/Reveraling Strike, you reduce the CD of KS/AR/Sprint by 2 seconds.

This is not a conflict. Both abilities want you to do the same thing (Press Sinister Strike as often as possible), and both reward you with damage.

The only 'conflict' is the first ~15 seconds of a fight where you have to decide between popping a CD at a lower insight buff and adding 10 seconds to it's CD, or waiting to pop it and reducing the CD. Which is, surprisingly, a pretty minimal impact since the reduced CD/damage buff washes out to some extent, and that sort of decision making is (and always has been) kinda the whole point of the Combat tree.

Combat potency and Main Gauche also conflict with each other.


They're intended to. The whole idea of MG is that it widens the 'sweet spot' of usable OH weapon speeds such that using the only 1.3 offhand (a blue) in the game isn't so much of a no brainer that you can forgo upgrading it for 51 item levels and the jump to being an Epic. The problem with MG is not that it exists, it's that it scales with gear.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Rogue
5245
As the author of this thread I'd personally like to say I've gotten a lot of insight into BG and MG and thank everyone for their own opinions related to the topic, I've learned and now understand much more than I thought I knew (and like to think of myself as a knowledgable player).

My concern is as follows. Ever since I've started playing WoW I have been a combat rogue until the recent patch where I felt my hand was forced to switch to mutilate. I'm very partial to combat and would welcome the opportunity to switch back when I feel combat changes warrant me to do so.

But with the recent changes to mutilate, I feel hard pressed to do so, mainly, Mastery: Potent Poisons now increases damage done by your poisons by 28%, up from 20%. Each point of Mastery increases damage by an additional 3.5%, up from 2.5%. This seems like a huge buff to mutilate and really will utilize the mastery equip bonuses of 150+ that iLvl 359 gear will have etc. I'm sure there are other who feel the same way I do out there....thoughts?



Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090
But with the recent changes to mutilate, I feel hard pressed to do so, mainly, Mastery: Potent Poisons now increases damage done by your poisons by 28%, up from 20%. Each point of Mastery increases damage by an additional 3.5%, up from 2.5%. This seems like a huge buff to mutilate and really will utilize the mastery equip bonuses of 150+ that iLvl 359 gear will have etc. I'm sure there are other who feel the same way I do out there....thoughts?


Mutilate needed the buffs too. Rogues were bad across the board, Combat rogues were just worse than others. Combat got a similar buff to Mastery, as well as massive buffs to vitality (much more free AP), Bandit's Guile (doubled!), Aggression (more SS and Eviscerate damage!), and Main Gauche's base mechanics (procs from special attacks).

Combat and Mut are in roughly similar places at 85 right now, but Mutilate does benefit substantially more from Mastery heavy gear, which is frustrating. It's essentially the same reason Mut didn't maintain it's enormous lead from early T10 into heroic ICC gear - they just didn't benefit from all the ArP that they basically had no choice but to collect some amount of.

If you want to talk about what's broken with Combat, that's the problem to focus on: Mastery, as a stat, doesn't do enough, and if it does too much, it will cause Very Bad Things to happen to weapon speeds, rotations, and stat priorities. If they don't want us being pushed towards Fast/Slow Combat Daggers, MG scaling with Mastery is what needs to go. Not the MG mechanic. Just the fact that it's tied to Mastery.

Otherwise, either Mastery is a horrible dump stat that we reforge out of at every opportunity, or it's so good that we end up having flashbacks to Molten Core.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
5270
Bandits Guile makes you wait to use killing spree. Restless Blades makes it so you should be using it asap to get it back faster
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Rogue
5245
<kneels before feist's knowledge>
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090
Bandits Guile makes you wait to use killing spree. Restless Blades makes it so you should be using it asap to get it back faster

Except that you'll already be at Moderate Insight before you have to make that decision (SnD doesn't trigger Restless Blades), and the fact that you shouldn't stack KS with AR, means that it's better to use KS during Moderate Insight (rather than waiting for Deep), so that you can use AR for the full duration of Deep Insight.
Maybe if KS didn't react poorly to being stacked with Adrenaline Rush this would be a problem, but the fact is that if you actually think through the real world timeline, the number of situations where making this choice is difficult are incredibly rare.

Here, let me sketch it out for you:

    Enter Combat:
  • Sinister Strike->SnD We now have 12 seconds to work with before a damaging finisher.

  • SSx4 (assume a GoSS proc)-> Finisher #2! at this point, we're at Shallow Insight, and Slice and Dice is about to run out, so we'd better refresh it!

  • SSx4: At this point, we have either 4 or 5 CP's, we have Moderate Insight, and 16 seconds or so on Slice and Dice. Now we have to decide whether to Rupture (or RS/Rupture as needed), or pop Killing Spree. Obviously, we pop KS, then the finisher, and then move on to...

  • SSx4 (or 5), ->Eviscerate... and yanno what? Right before that Eviscerate, we've hit our 12th Sinister Strike. Do you know what that means? Deep Insight! Max damage form BG! Just in time to hit Adrenaline Rush and get maximum benefit from it for the full duration!



Where's the problem?
Edited by Feist on 11/5/2010 2:30 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
9765
BG is basically hunger for blood, except it has a ramp up time, tho not having to press the button is a little bit of an improvement, I guess. I think that Id pick HFB if I had a choice between the two tho.

The original HfB had to be stacked 3 times, just fyi
Reply Quote
90 Orc Rogue
15165

Otherwise, either Mastery is a horrible dump stat that we reforge out of at every opportunity, or it's so good that we end up having flashbacks to Molten Core.


I started playing in BC time. What was this bad acid trip that rogues collectively experienced in Molten Core days?
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090

Otherwise, either Mastery is a horrible dump stat that we reforge out of at every opportunity, or it's so good that we end up having flashbacks to Molten Core.


I started playing in BC time. What was this bad acid trip that rogues collectively experienced in Molten Core days?


Combat Daggers.
Reply Quote
Main gauche is normalized.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
7150
SSx4 (or 5), ->Eviscerate... and yanno what? Right before that Eviscerate, we've hit our 12th Sinister Strike. Do you know what that means? Deep Insight! Max damage form BG! Just in time to hit Adrenaline Rush and get maximum benefit from it for the full duration!

There's actually a good argument that you're better off using Adrush as soon as you get to 10% buff to get out more Sinister Strikes and get the 30% buff up sooner.
Since the VAST majority of our damage comes from passive attacks, higher 30% uptime outweighs a few seconds of big Sinister Strike hits.

It really shows how flawed BGs design is.

Edited by Mif on 11/5/2010 6:09 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090
SSx4 (or 5), ->Eviscerate... and yanno what? Right before that Eviscerate, we've hit our 12th Sinister Strike. Do you know what that means? Deep Insight! Max damage form BG! Just in time to hit Adrenaline Rush and get maximum benefit from it for the full duration!

There's actually a good argument that you're better off using Adrush as soon as you get to 10% buff to get out more Sinister Strikes and get the 30% buff up sooner.
Since the VAST majority of our damage comes from passive attacks, higher 30% uptime outweighs a few seconds of big Sinister Strike hits.
It really shows how flawed BGs design is.


Adrenaline Rush increases Haste now. It's not just about a few more seconds of Big SS's, it's about getting more damage out of the increased haste and eviscerates etc.

The key things to keep in mind are
1) You don't want to use KS at the same time as AR.
2) AR benefits from high BG stacks more than KS, because AR is the more potent CD.

Competing with this, we have:
3) Using AR first means it comes off CD sooner
4) Using AR first means we get to 30% the first time sooner, and roll stacks faster.

Incidentally, at the moment we also have
5) KS is currently bugged and does not seem to benefit from BG at all.

Now, this doesn't make BG a bad design, it makes it a good design because it encourages thoughtful play and a skill gap between good and bad players, while not allowing bad decisions to leave you being terrible. I've posted a few times in this thread about how tension between opposing pressures is how the devs widen the sweet spot to allow a broader range of actions to produce 'acceptable' results. The fact that there will be an optimal one does not negate the value of widening that sweet spot however.

Also, the benefit of AR getting to 30% sooner is somewhat mitigated by the fact that we start with 100 energy, not 0 energy, and really, given the way BG works, we don't want to minimize the time we spend at 5/10% we want to maximize it (Or possibly only maximizing 10%) - while minimizing the time we spend at 0% - popping AR at 10% is counterproductive because it just rushes you to the end of the cycle where you restart at 0. Your options for AR are right at the beginning - to get out of the lowest buff segment of the cycle, or at the end, to maximize the synergy between 30% damage and Energy regen/Haste.

For the very first AR, you're probably best off waiting the 15 seconds that it takes you to get up and running because you have other CD's competing for that attention. For subsequent AR's, you're probably better off using it at whichever of those two states you hit next - the benefit of both is pretty similar.

tl;dr BG is fine, it rewards thoughtful play and cooldown management, and if it's too hard for you go play Mutilate.

Combat has issues with it's DPS, but the problems are not with Bandit's Guile, and they're largely not even mechanical at all. Combats Mechanics at 85 are possibly the most fun playing a PVE rogue has ever been.
Edited by Feist on 11/5/2010 6:26 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Troll Rogue
9660
But with the recent changes to mutilate, I feel hard pressed to do so, mainly, Mastery: Potent Poisons now increases damage done by your poisons by 28%, up from 20%. Each point of Mastery increases damage by an additional 3.5%, up from 2.5%. This seems like a huge buff to mutilate and really will utilize the mastery equip bonuses of 150+ that iLvl 359 gear will have etc. I'm sure there are other who feel the same way I do out there....thoughts?


Mutilate needed the buffs too. Rogues were bad across the board, Combat rogues were just worse than others. Combat got a similar buff to Mastery, as well as massive buffs to vitality (much more free AP), Bandit's Guile (doubled!), Aggression (more SS and Eviscerate damage!), and Main Gauche's base mechanics (procs from special attacks).

Combat and Mut are in roughly similar places at 85 right now, but Mutilate does benefit substantially more from Mastery heavy gear, which is frustrating. It's essentially the same reason Mut didn't maintain it's enormous lead from early T10 into heroic ICC gear - they just didn't benefit from all the ArP that they basically had no choice but to collect some amount of.

If you want to talk about what's broken with Combat, that's the problem to focus on: Mastery, as a stat, doesn't do enough, and if it does too much, it will cause Very Bad Things to happen to weapon speeds, rotations, and stat priorities. If they don't want us being pushed towards Fast/Slow Combat Daggers, MG scaling with Mastery is what needs to go. Not the MG mechanic. Just the fact that it's tied to Mastery.

Otherwise, either Mastery is a horrible dump stat that we reforge out of at every opportunity, or it's so good that we end up having flashbacks to Molten Core.[/quote]

Mutilate will naturally out-scale combat this expac, since it naturally ignores a lot of armor, and as stats increase, it will ignore more.

Without big coefficients, combat is going to have a tough time keeping pace. Mutilate will naturally get more benefit from almost every stat, given that it ignores a lot of armor. The only thing holding it back there are 150% poison crits. I'm not sure why rogues still crit poisons at 150%, either :-/
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Rogue
12510
The real downside to BG comes from any target switch, or the loss of synergy with fight mechanics/Bloodlust. My solution would be to move the insight buff to the rogue, and decrease the number of "charges" to go up each ramp, with the deep insight being a bit longer.

Honestly, I just can't stand a mechanic that I can "control" but not in a meaningful way, which is so importantly tied to my damage output.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Rogue
12090
The real downside to BG comes from any target switch, or the loss of synergy with fight mechanics/Bloodlust. My solution would be to move the insight buff to the rogue, and decrease the number of "charges" to go up each ramp, with the deep insight being a bit longer.

Honestly, I just can't stand a mechanic that I can "control" but not in a meaningful way, which is so importantly tied to my damage output.


Insight moves with Redirect now. That solves 90% of the problem. The remaining 10% is mostly irrelevant trash fights and FoK fests anyway.

If it becomes a larger issue than I've seen it be the past 3 nights (doing heroic and some normal raids on beta), the 'right' solution is to add Redirect to Restless Blades, but I'm not convinced that's needed.
Reply Quote
70 Orc Rogue
1590
Bandits Guile and Restless Blades do not fit well together.

In what universe? Bandit's Guile stacks faster, and you get more uptime on +15(30)% damage, the more you use Sinister/Revealing Strike.

Restless Blades reduces cooldowns every time you spend CP's. You only spend CP's proportional to those you gain. In other words, every time you use Sinister/Reveraling Strike, you reduce the CD of KS/AR/Sprint by 2 seconds.

This is not a conflict. Both abilities want you to do the same thing (Press Sinister Strike as often as possible), and both reward you with damage.

The only 'conflict' is the first ~15 seconds of a fight where you have to decide between popping a CD at a lower insight buff and adding 10 seconds to it's CD, or waiting to pop it and reducing the CD. Which is, surprisingly, a pretty minimal impact since the reduced CD/damage buff washes out to some extent, and that sort of decision making is (and always has been) kinda the whole point of the Combat tree.



I think you are mistaken (like many people) about the way Bandit's guile functions.


Bandits Guile makes you wait to use killing spree. Restless Blades makes it so you should be using it asap to get it back faster

Except that you'll already be at Moderate Insight before you have to make that decision (SnD doesn't trigger Restless Blades), and the fact that you shouldn't stack KS with AR, means that it's better to use KS during Moderate Insight (rather than waiting for Deep), so that you can use AR for the full duration of Deep Insight.
Maybe if KS didn't react poorly to being stacked with Adrenaline Rush this would be a problem, but the fact is that if you actually think through the real world timeline, the number of situations where making this choice is difficult are incredibly rare.

Here, let me sketch it out for you:

    Enter Combat:
  • Sinister Strike->SnD We now have 12 seconds to work with before a damaging finisher.

  • SSx4 (assume a GoSS proc)-> Finisher #2! at this point, we're at Shallow Insight, and Slice and Dice is about to run out, so we'd better refresh it!

  • SSx4: At this point, we have either 4 or 5 CP's, we have Moderate Insight, and 16 seconds or so on Slice and Dice. Now we have to decide whether to Rupture (or RS/Rupture as needed), or pop Killing Spree. Obviously, we pop KS, then the finisher, and then move on to...

  • SSx4 (or 5), ->Eviscerate... and yanno what? Right before that Eviscerate, we've hit our 12th Sinister Strike. Do you know what that means? Deep Insight! Max damage form BG! Just in time to hit Adrenaline Rush and get maximum benefit from it for the full duration!



Where's the problem?



You must not use a glyphed Sinister Strike or Plan to spec Ruthlessness.

The RNG won't provide such an easy to plan out combo point generation and expenditure.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]