Light of Dawn

100 Blood Elf Paladin
13020
The main problem with LoD from a 10 man perspective is getting enough people in the cones range. While I like the spell, on a fight like heroic Halfus 10 - it can be extremely problematic to use effectively. I found myself going back to WoG often for 2 reasons: Eternal Glory proccing makes WoG insane and the cone being less effective when everyones spread out.

On other fights, it will be quite a bit more effective. However, it well never be as fluid to use as a CoH/WG really because those heals have no directional feature. I don't mind that, though.


I have to agree the smaller the party the worse LoD performs.

For those in 25 man it is a god send, but if you are in a 5 man or 10 man performance is bad.

And when will they fix the FRIGN GRAPHIC SO YOU CAN POINT IT RIGHT?

I have had LoD in one of my movies go STRAIGHT UP, WTF? Missed everyone point blank!


I have had that happen to me as well!
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21140
LoD's graphic has absolutely nothing to do with its AoE. If you're aiming your character forward and are strafing left, your LoD will fire off to the left but you will still heal everyone in front of you.
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85 Human Paladin
6955

So for 10 man I get to use LoD to heal less then 5 targets EVERY SINGLE TIME?
VS 25 man that is almost guarantied to hit 5 targets every time?
What does Wrath mindset have to do with that?
My point is still 100% valid and ignored again.
(By the way having a smaller party does not mean all my heals are smaller)


I don't like 25s. I enjoy 10-man raiding and unless circumstances dictate otherwise, I plan on doing mostly only 10-man raiding in Cataclysm.

You must observe a certain phenomenon- % of the raid you are healing. I started out raid healing on my holy paladin at the beginning of Wrath, and found I much preferred 10 mans. Why? Every one of my heals healed 1/10 of the raid, or even 2/10 if I was beaconing a target and the heals were needed in both places (you know, the old way beacon worked). in a 25, my own healing power was at most 2/25 of the raid, and that made raid healing in that way and role SUCKY.

If you hit 4 people with LoD, you've just applied healing to 40% of the raid- just because you didn't make the target cap doesn't mean the spell was wasn't or unuseful! That's right- in 10-mans, you may get magnificent function in a raid with your LoD NEVER reaching the target cap- because any additional function would require too much effort on positioning for the raid.

The Argument that other healer's 31-point talents aren't as positional, situation, etc.- that's a very poor argument, and it makes me mourn. Shadow priest's and dispersion say hello. 31-point talents should be compelling and interesting, LoD is NOTHING if not compelling and interesting. It is different, yes, and positional, yes, and it will be more useful in 25-mans- but so is Chain heal. As a shaman having healed ICC 10 the past couple months, I can attest that Chain heal is often WORTHLESS in ten mans, but always useful in 25s. The Recent nerfs to Chain heal only make that worse! As such, the line you're taking- that you're going to hit more targets in 25 man, and won't reach the target cap in ten man- it's simply misled. It is not 100% valid- it's a mistaken argument, and misleading. CoH and WG might be more useful in 10 mans, but those -also- often miss their target cap in 10s.


My point: LoD is worthwhile and interesting. I haven't seen anything so far that convinces me anything is wrong with the current incarnation except for blatant bugs, which we can expect will be fixed.

I do want to add, I'm with Elo, the graphic isn't how I point, and while I DO sometimes keyboard turn, mouse turning is going to become more important to paladin healing now- but then, it has always been important, even in isolated cases in PvE (my poor keyboard turning buddy on Sindragosa- /shake head) :) Mouse turning is something every holy paladin will be required to learn, no offense or leaving out of any age group there- games evolve, this one just did, as well. :)
Edited by Fordrus on 11/7/2010 3:26 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
6955
Your argument is that failure of design of LoD is somehow ok.

If you prefer to see it that way, then yes, this is my argument. Of course, I describe it differently. :)
I believe the gist is that we're approaching the limits of interesting healing without incorporating some elements of FPS, yes. A heal like LoD will tax you aim and sense of depth the way and FPS does. I should be afraid of that, I suck awfully at FPSs. But I'm not. :)
I do not think it is a failure of design to have a heal with a target cap of 6 and then expect a healer not to hit that cap very often in a ten man raid. In fact, I think that if a paladin were able to consistently hit 6 people with LoD in a ten man raid, the spell's numbers would need to be radically nerfed, because that's rather a giant amount of healing for one full Holy Power GCD. I absolutely with those who mentioned that LoD is likely balanced around missing the target cap in ten mans. I don't think that lessens its excellence as a spell- in fact, this is ten man favoritism- if you can work it to where you can hit 6 targets consistently and usefully (not just overhealing) in a ten man with LoD, you'll find yourself quite OP.
Mouse turning is important, I understand because it's important for macros to be unable to spin a person instantly like a mouse conceivably can. Keyboard turning isn't in for this reason, I'm told, and as long as the input is with the flick of a mouse, it prevents certain kinds of cheating. Carbonic, you'll be fine- it's something new, but even if older dogs don't learn new tricks, humans sure can. :)
That said, I might abandon watching this thread this carefully until I can back up my above statements about LoD with numbers.
But please remember this refrain: It is my understanding that currently, if you CAN consistently and usefully hit 6 targets with LoD in a ten man, what you have on your hands is a horrifically OP AoE healing model for holy paladins, especially with holy radiance factored in every 30 seconds. I hate saying that, but I, like many others, don't desire to be OP, I just wanna heal happy. :)

Edit: Just to add, thanks for expressing your concerns again, Carbonic, and again, I don't mean to be snide or rude. :) Yes, I do think that healing numbers being lower in a ten man environment should be fine. I'll explore than more fully in a future post. For now, Organic Chemistry calls my name. :)
Edited by Fordrus on 11/7/2010 7:19 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
6955
Using the mouse I can look and point behind me while running and cast LoD.


No, Actually, this has been in the back of my mind for a while, but I don't think the underlying framework is in the game to support it. League of Legends does this for cone-AoEs, and it's really quite fun. If it can be made to work, it has my full support. I suggest you go to the suggestions forum, or start a new thread here, about it, shipping the idea, if you're strongly after it.

I'm fine either way, I think both could be fun. :)

And actually, your ten man groups DOES have less health. Think about it this way: your ten man group has a combined HP pool of about 70,000 x 8 raiders, plus two tanks at 160k each (those might be horribly wrong numbers, but they're what comes to mind). A 25-man has three tanks, usually, at 160k, and then 70,000 x 22. If your LoD restores 5-9k health per target hit, 30-54k for six targets, which is a certain percentage...

You know, dangit, I am a distractable fool. I will come back and describe this in more detail later. For now, imagine this scenario in wrath- in a 25-man group, AoE pulsing aura fight, 25 people take that damage each tick. In a ten man, 10 people take that pulsing AoE damage. If, say, it wasn't pulsing aoE damage, but rather, like, Toravon's Ice Spheres, in a 25-man, you could expect 5-8 people to be standing in the area and scattering upon the orb's arrival as it travels. In a ten man, 2 people, perhaps three, would be taking that damage. In the ten man scenario, you hit the 3 people taking damage with LoD, perhaps missing the fourth nearby dude. In 25-man, you hit the 5-8 person area, and only the 6 most damage people get heals.

It's about proportions. I'm not certain of the math. I'm gonna do some analysis, but for now, I'ma post it and learn Ochem. :)

(<-Forum Addict. Somebody slam my keyboard, please. :) :) :) I do enjoy talking to ya'll, though. :)
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70 Blood Elf Hunter
980
Ok then is this game a FPS or a RPG or something different?

Just because a newb programmer has always used Mouse turning does not make it better, it just takes advantage of the way the game is designed. The game can be designed to take key turns and make them better then mouse turns. It is a tuning issue, you can make the mouse spin you around with to much response and you always end up going back where you came from.
Like I said this is a tuning issue, nothing else. It is dependent on the designers.
Right now we have a delay on keypress because of hackers so key turns are slower today.


That's kind of a strange argument. WoW is a game where turning with a mouse is optimal - that's not exclusive to FPS, and it never has been. I'm sure the developers could somehow penalize turning with a mouse, or somehow pigeonhole people into using the keyboard to
turn. That would make the gameplay much less fluid, however, so it's never going to happen.

You may as well just go ahead and adapt. =P

[Edit: I missed the line about hackers, which was essential to your argument. >.> Still, I'd say that mouse turning is inherently more precise, and that, whatever the reasons behind it are, there's little doubt that the design is here to stay.

Also, editing a post is more annoying on this forum - so far.]

So again why the favoritism for 25 man?
Do you really think that healing numbers being less then 25 man for the same spell are OK?


10s and 25s will never deliver the same experience. In 10s, there's fewer people but it's still beneficial to have some combination of ranged and melee (with few exceptions). Spells like Chain Heal, Wild Growth, etc. are harder to maximize in 10s because of that, and yes, that applies to Light of Dawn as well. That even applies to HoTs like Rejuvenation. In 25 mans, there's a lot of direct heals going around, and so a Druid or a Holy Priest can rely a lot on HoTs; in 10 mans, however, each individual healer has to contribute more direct healing, and so HoTs usually make up a smaller percentage of their healing done.

That's not favoritism. And it's not a matter of equality. It's just a matter of 10s and 25s being different. That's both inevitable and okay, because that gives a bit more variety to PvE.
Edited by Fredi on 11/7/2010 8:14 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
6955
Carbonic, I do sympathize, I really do, but the fact that you, specifically, and maybe few hundred (even thousands? hundred thousands?) suffer from lag/ping time difficulties is no way to design a game. People once believe that a game like Warcraft would be totally impossible, and indeed, once it was- once specific turn-based combat was the only reality for online games- it isn't anymore, thanks to innovations in various fields that have benefited us.

And I do know, trust me, I loved to play MUDs, once, in a faraway land, on my 56k (BLAZING fast at the time!) modem- and live combat often sucked, as I'd find myself dead between data deliveries. I was preemptively chugging a potion between every cast to prevent my utter doom. I know it sucks. But they didn't design the game around me then, and I'm freakishly glad, because it evolved into better things- and I evolved, too. I upgraded as things became available, and today, have built my own cheap-but-powerful in its own right- computer.

Positional Heals will suck with lag. I don't think anyone will dispute that. But as long as lag isn't the standard user experience for WoW, making sure that there isn't anything the requires a good ping in PvE is- well, asinine. You'll eventually play such that there is no lag- when you are in that state, you'll be with us, likely- and if you succeed in helping devs see it as you do, you'll likely miss the idea of positional heals terribly, when you could benefit from them greatly.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21140
Sorry I have to disagree. Anything would be better then the 31 point talent we get now.
This is a horrid 31 point talent compared to others.
Positional, does not heal for much and even if you have no cooldown you have to have 3 Holy Power to use it.
Besides it is not even a 45% cone like it should be it is like 30% cone and goes off the left hand.
Beacon was a good defining talent, LoD is crap in comparison.

LoD was putting out more healing than Wild Growth in my clear of a few bosses in Blackwing Descent last night. Included fights with a lot of spreading out like most of Tron Council. We ran 2x holy paladin 1x druid in normal modes, all top-end players. Healing assignments were mostly FFA (pallies pumping heals into tanks for ToR+LoD, druid healing tanks but using WG on cooldown).

The redesign of the spell is great fun, and it certainly is on-par with the other 6-target cooldown heals. It really doesn't matter that it won't hit 6 people every cast - neither does WG in the same situations. And no, we used LoD to heal range primarily, WG was better served on the melee clump assuming damage on both clumps at the same times.
Edited by Eloderung on 11/10/2010 10:42 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4055
And no, we used LoD to heal range primarily, WG was better served on the melee clump assuming damage on both clumps at the same times.


That's interesting. How does that work exactly? Like where were you standing relative to the ranged?
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21140
And no, we used LoD to heal range primarily, WG was better served on the melee clump assuming damage on both clumps at the same times.


That's interesting. How does that work exactly? Like where were you standing relative to the ranged?


When range spread out and attack one target, they tend to form a semi-circle. It's just playing connect the dots from there, and usually it was possible to hit ~3-4 targets (including self, running three melee dps) simply by standing in a similar formation along the circle. Even when the semi-circle is heavily misshapen, it's not that bad to re-adjust your position during your Holy Shocks to hit more players. LoD isn't as effective when you're in the middle of spread out ranged dps but its shape still isn't as bad as people make it out to be in 10-mans, relative to the other similar heals.

And in the offchance that AoE damage is happening when you can't get a good LoD off, you can always just help out on the melee and let your other healer take care of the ranged for that particular burst. WoG isn't a terrible choice either for said situations but they really need to break LoD transferring to Beacon heals.

The normal modes didn't require much of a strategy so we didn't pay attention to positioning past "Clump up for X mechanic, spread out for Y mechanic, run away from Z ability" for certain important mechanics. I'm sure the positioning could be streamlined for both LoD and the other similar heals.
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85 Human Paladin
6955
Thanks for your input, Elo- your experience is worth a thousand posts! :)

Also-

Dang, LoD still transfers to Beacon?!

I surely thought that'd be dead with the change- my brain doesn't even process the OPness of that. :)

Positional Heals will suck with lag. I don't think anyone will dispute that.


I stand corrected in a powerful way- The way Elo described LoD's function, it doesn't sound like lag will actually be THAT big an issue, provided it isn't enough to lag to leave you or your target dead in a thousand ways other than LoD position difficulties. :)
Edited by Fordrus on 11/10/2010 12:25 PM PST
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21140



I stand corrected in a powerful way- The way Elo described LoD's function, it doesn't sound like lag will actually be THAT big an issue, provided it isn't enough to lag to leave you or your target dead in a thousand ways other than LoD position difficulties. :)


I don't think lag will be a huge issue relative to other heals. Individual heals now are such a small portion of a total player's hit points that a missed LoD target due to lack would not be a huge deal. If anything, any additional disadvantage lag might create for us in regards to LoD will be counterbalanced by the mobility advantage of Holy Radiance in 10-man situations - void zone heals do so poorly in situations where people must spread out and/or move but Holy Radiance still does well.

The only unusual lag aspect I could think of would be something like Sindragosa Blistering Cold, where every possible target in the raid could be missed due the discrepancy between your screen and the server. But I think proper strategy will compensate for both this problem and any issues that result with the heal shape, i.e., on the fights I did recently we could have easily positioned in such a way to better maximize LoD targets on the range.
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100 Undead Priest
TSP
15615
So, we were told we might see such a thing, and here it is, Light of Dawn as the holy power based smart heal mechanic!

I love the idea. I'm not blessed with beta access, but even without it, I am so stoked!

But big question is this- I got wind of this through MMO Champion, and Boubouille is awesome, I just- his recent little flub with the scaling makes me all the sudden nervous to accept this as gospel.

Has this gone through?

What do ya'll think?

I believe this is going to be really awesome- so much so, I think it will take balancing to not be OP. But I don't mind that, I'm just still basking in the glow of these recent changes. Ever since raid testing began, I've been getting more and more comfortable with the new way things work- both on my own, and in the synergies I have with other healers.

I can't freaking wait to raid something other than ICC. :D


I got a permanent ban for discussing an unreleased feature during the WotLK beta.

You may wish to be careful.

Just sayin'
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