Light of Dawn

87 Human Paladin
11610
I was on the tram going from Stormwind to Ironforge, i was on the third platform while another player was on the platform in the middle, i was bored so i started spamming them with my heals, every heal worked... except Light of Dawn, because of its cone shape and graphical restrictions the spell failed to heal.

This is just another example as to why this spell needs another redesign, you can defend it all you want with your false logic "its balanced around missing people" or "it heals more than CoH", but until they remove the 3D cone and all its buggy unreliable unpractical limitations the spell will continue to cause problems, Holy Radiance will have to be much stronger to compensate, and we will be the least wanted healer for 10mans.

It really is that simple.

Missing people because of lag, or it not healing 6 people because you cant heal everyone with the cone shape is perfectly fine.

But graphical restrictions that prevent me from using this spell is just stupid. You can use CoH / WG when you are above or below the target, on platforms, across giant gaps, while your moving, when you get knocked in the air, on vehicle fights like gunship, you can even position yourself behind a obstacle to LoS an enemy and position yourself in such a way to still use CoH / WG, cant do any of those things with LoD.
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90 Draenei Paladin
20430

But graphical restrictions that prevent me from using this spell is just stupid. You can use CoH / WG when you are above or below the target, on platforms, across giant gaps, while your moving, when you get knocked in the air, on vehicle fights like gunship, you can even position yourself behind a obstacle to LoS an enemy and position yourself in such a way to still use CoH / WG, cant do any of those things with LoD.


Other than the next to zero z-axis bug with LoD (which probably has something to do with the gunship/tram bugs), you can do all of those things properly with LoD.

I was on the tram going from Stormwind to Ironforge, i was on the third platform while another player was on the platform in the middle, i was bored so i started spamming them with my heals, every heal worked... except Light of Dawn, because of its cone shape and graphical restrictions the spell failed to heal.

This is just another example as to why this spell needs another redesign, you can defend it all you want with your false logic "its balanced around missing people" or "it heals more than CoH", but until they remove the 3D cone and all its buggy unreliable unpractical limitations the spell will continue to cause problems, Holy Radiance will have to be much stronger to compensate, and we will be the least wanted healer for 10mans.

It really is that simple.

Missing people because of lag, or it not healing 6 people because you cant heal everyone with the cone shape is perfectly fine.


I'm still not sure how lag is supposed to affect LoD any more or less than CoH or WG. I'm also not sure what the z-axis bug has to do with LoD as it would work once these beta bugs are fixed.
Edited by Eloderung on 11/10/2010 5:32 PM PST
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70 Blood Elf Hunter
980
It's also ridiculous to dismiss the fact that LoD is about as good as its equivalents in current raid content as "false logic," and to instead emphasize that LoD is hard to use on the tram connecting Stormwind and Ironforge. That's just revealing of this predisposition to dislike LoD.

LoD is unique, and therefore has unique strengths and weaknesses (it's harder to use than spells like CoH and WG, but it costs no mana and can potentially be used more often). I don't know how it's useful to dismiss the strengths and exaggerate the weaknesses.

Also, "It really is that simple" = "I'm going to ignore all the points that don't confirm my preconceived notions of how bad LoD's cone mechanic is."
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85 Blood Elf Priest
4700
The cone idea just bugs me..... : /
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
The cone idea just bugs me..... : /


Agreed. I personaly am about versatility and practicality.
LoD has also bugged me from the start. I kinda did it to myself though. The first night i started reading all the new spells and utilities for healers and Cata i started with Priests and then looked through Shamans and Druids before coming to my main Holy Paladins. It was very disapointing back then to say the least.
I went from " wow the priest changes look cool and fun - wow the shaman looks cool also - wow druids also look fun - ...omg, wtf happened to my paladin O.o ? "

I am happy about the recent changes in regards to LoD and Holy Power however. That was a better step in a better direction for this spell.


A lot of the people i see saying that they like LoD are often only referring to its appearance or its graphic - mostly. They normaly like the "idea" but don't often offer much input on its uses and practicality.
Those i see complaining about its practical use often dislike its graphic and concept. They are normaly not so fussed with the cone graphic but are concerned about it as an actual healing mechanic.

My point is if i was only concerned about how my healing appeared or looked then i wouldn't care less about my throughput or practical use and just heal in a bright pink dress all the time. LoD has too many drawbacks in its uses and i am interested to see how / if this will be addressed.
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85 Human Paladin
6955
Rats. Not sure what key combo got smashed, but whatever it did, it deleted my response to Tyriss before it posted. Darn.

I offer at least this, though:

we will be the least wanted healer for 10mans.


Arnath, I remember being in all those thread way back with you, on the old forums, talking about LoD, divine plea, and other issues. I want you to absolutely, positively know, that since testing has begun, this boat has sailed, sunk, rotted, and has been stripped by treasure hunters. Our healing abilties at 85 are currently fine if not outright OP for raid healing and tank healing. We are NOT in danger of being left behind at 85. Life is BEAUTIFUL for Holy paladins right now, barring a few bugs.

It really is that simple. :D :D :D
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70 Blood Elf Hunter
980
I want you to absolutely, positively know, that since testing has begun, this boat has sailed, sunk, rotted, and has been stripped by treasure hunters. Our healing abilties at 85 are currently fine if not outright OP for raid healing and tank healing. We are NOT in danger of being left behind at 85. Life is BEAUTIFUL for Holy paladins right now, baring a few bugs.


Yeah, it's amazing to me. I hate how this mechanical, through-a-straw view of balance is so prevalent on the forums, and how that tends to be the starting point in discussions (opposed to, for example, "Is this cool?"). Even when actual testing is proving that LoD is a solid spell, some are still down on it because the cone mechanic makes balancing the spell less straightforward than, say, balancing CoH.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110
I admit I'm not in love with the cone part, but I don't think it's useless. I think it could be improved by giving it a queue up/drop type mechanic like a priest's mass dispel. But instead of getting the circle on the ground, you'd get the actual direction of travel on the cone giving you a chance to make sure you are properly positioned before casting it.

Seriously, though, even that isn't a monumentally huge deal. I have seen it put as much as a 20k heal onto my beacon target in PVP, and with the new 50% beacon, I'd say that makes LOD far from broken or useless.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4055

I went from " wow the priest changes look cool and fun - wow the shaman looks cool also - wow druids also look fun - ...omg, wtf happened to my paladin O.o ? "

My point is if i was only concerned about how my healing appeared or looked then i wouldn't care less about my throughput or practical use and just heal in a bright pink dress all the time. LoD has too many drawbacks in its uses and i am interested to see how / if this will be addressed.


Holy Paladins are a little bit like Holy Priests in WotLK as far as how much stuff they have going on. I think that's a good thing. They have enough spells and procs to keep you entertained, but not so much that your toolbox becomes a burden. If you really liked the Holy Paladin playstyle in wrath, you can continue to mostly play the same. HR is hardly class redefining, and LoD is optional.

That being said, I do wish LoD would be improved in some way to make it easier to use. The numbers look good, but the mechanics don't. It's a bit like how Prayer of Healing is in ICC. It's a spell with a lot of positives, but also a lot of negatives, and ultimately ends up being lackluster.
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87 Human Paladin
11610
There has been no suggestion that they will implement a z-axis with LoD, i would like to think its just a 'bug', but with the expansions release only a few weeks away my focus is on balance, and not what could be potentially fixed in a few Tiers time, i don’t want to be Blizzards guinea pig, ive said before i like the IDEA of a cone heal, but until they can perfect it and make it work they should put the IDEA aside, at least for now, and focus on class balance.

It's also ridiculous to dismiss the fact that LoD is about as good as its equivalents in current raid content as "false logic," and to instead emphasize that LoD is hard to use on the tram connecting Stormwind and Ironforge. That's just revealing of this predisposition to dislike LoD.


The tram was just an example of all the potential problems LoD has, fact shows that LoD is only better than its equivalents via pure output, and that’s in the very rare occasions you can heal the full 6 players that needed that burst AoE healing the most within the raid. Mechanics wise it’s vastly insignificant compared to the ease of CoH and WG.

Also, "It really is that simple" = "I'm going to ignore all the points that don't confirm my preconceived notions of how bad LoD's cone mechanic is."


I never said that, and what i said doesn’t even suggest that, if that’s how you want to interpret it then go ahead. I am always listening, i am always taking everyone’s opinions in, i never ignore anyone.

A lot of the people i see saying that they like LoD are often only referring to its appearance or its graphic - mostly. They normally like the "idea" but don't often offer much input on its uses and practicality.
Those i see complaining about its practical use often dislike its graphic and concept. They are normally not so fussed with the cone graphic but are concerned about it as an actual healing mechanic.


I completely agree, i mentioned it a few pages back, people are in love with an IDEA, i love the IDEA of a cone heal too, but if the idea can not be brought to life within the game successfully then you have two options, first you can admit defeat and scrap the idea, or two implement the idea to the best of your ability and HOPE that over time you can make it work, fix the bugs, and make it balanced and enjoyable to use.

Its clear Blizz chose the second option, they implemented LoD, and it didn’t take them long to redesign it, it want be last either, i can guarantee 100% that Light of Dawn will be the most tweaked, most changed, most adjusted spell via the end of Cataclysm expansion. Going by some of these posts people seem to think that’s ok, but i don’t want another 'Beacon Incident', or another 'Sacred Shield HoT Gimmick' half way through this expansion, i want this class ready to go from day one.
Edited by Arnath on 11/11/2010 2:39 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
LoD really should have been given to Ret and Prot as a dps ability. People can argue all they want but a cone "heal" will never work properly or as intended. It has too many drawbacks compared to other mechanics and that isn't balanced.

Yeah, it's amazing to me. I hate how this mechanical, through-a-straw view of balance is so prevalent on the forums, and how that tends to be the starting point in discussions (opposed to, for example, "Is this cool?"). Even when actual testing is proving that LoD is a solid spell, some are still down on it because the cone mechanic makes balancing the spell less straightforward than, say, balancing CoH.


Who cares if something is cool if it has so many disadvantages. Testing has proven that LoD can work - testing is far from proving that LoD is "solid".
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
I i can guarantee 100% that Light of Dawn will be the most tweaked, most changed, most adjusted spell via the end of Cataclysm expansion.


i guarantee you're wrong.

LoD is balanced already, so why would they consider tweaking it? because you can't grasp how a cone works?

Using anecdotal examples of LoD (ON THE FREAKIN' TRAM, NO LESS) doesn't do anything to prove that it's flawed. The only thing that i take from a thread like this is that most competant players are not having problems using it, that it's an excellent heal and is exactly what holy pallies needed in terms of heal choice/toolkit.


I'm really sorry that your biased against the cone heal. That doesn't mean that it's useless, or it stinks, or that it's a detriment. Clearly you never played AoC.

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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
Holy Paladins are a little bit like Holy Priests in WotLK as far as how much stuff they have going on. I think that's a good thing. They have enough spells and procs to keep you entertained, but not so much that your toolbox becomes a burden. If you really liked the Holy Paladin playstyle in wrath, you can continue to mostly play the same. HR is hardly class redefining, and LoD is optional.


I sincerely hope that response wasn't directed to me.. =.=

Holy Priests are far more entertaining to play than Holy Paladins are. Holy Paladins are more interesting now then they were - yes. And no.. no one can continue to play as they did before the patch changes if that is what you are referring to by Wotlk. You can if you wanted to.. but apologise to your group in advance for wasting their time and having them carry you.

And not many people will settle for "optional" for LoD. Being that if it stays terrible and unreliable as it is now, that we can choose not to use it and single target heal Aoe damage outside of Hr.
People want it to be reliable and optimal.. not unreliable and optional.

No one would like the kind of versatility that because this spell has too many drawbacks - "hey, you don't have to use it"
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
I'm really sorry that your biased against the cone heal. That doesn't mean that it's useless, or it stinks, or that it's a detriment. Clearly you never played AoC.


Thats funny because in that same post by Arnath, he posted and said that he likes the Cone Heal. Clearly you like to read what you want. Bit like selective hearing is it?

So how can you make an argument by twisting someones words to your favor in a weak attempt at a burn ?


Using anecdotal examples of LoD (ON THE FREAKIN' TRAM, NO LESS) doesn't do anything to prove that it's flawed.


Umm.. its not ground breaking stuff no.. but yeah.. it does prove a flaw. Im quite sure in said example that the other heals similar to LoD would have worked fine in that situation..
The flaw he was talking about being the position based mechanic.. people have proven that it is flawed already many times. Stairs for example.. ?
Edited by Tyriss on 11/11/2010 8:20 AM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665


Thats funny because in that same post by Arnath, he posted and said that he likes the Cone Heal. Clearly you like to read what you want. Bit like selective hearing is it?

So how can you make an argument by twisting someones words to your favor ?


actually, he said that he likes the IDEA of a cone heal, but not the implementation. You can't take that position.

The implementation of LOD that exists is the only way you can make it exist. I'm not sure what you could do to solve his problems - because they are problems only in his head, due to his cone heal bias.

Saying something like "i like the IDEA of a cone heal, but until they can perfect it and make it work they should put the IDEA aside, at least for now, and focus on class balance." is nothing but covering your tracks. He's trying to sound like some objective critic, but the reality is that if you don't like the way LoD is right now, then you don't like the idea of a cone heal, period.

Not to mention the fact that he uses nothing but anecdotal out of context evidence to back up his claims that LoD has all these "problems."
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
I see..

He's trying to sound like some objective critic, but the reality is that if you don't like the way LoD is right now, then you don't like the idea of a cone heal, period.


How is that not bias?
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
I see..

He's trying to sound like some objective critic, but the reality is that if you don't like the way LoD is right now, then you don't like the idea of a cone heal, period.


How is that not bias?



Um.. it is bias.

that's exactly what i've been saying. do you read my posts?

He's biased against LoD because he doesn't like the cone heal. He says he likes the idea of a cone heal, but that's either an attempt to play both sides, or a lack of understanding on how cone heals work.

LoD can't remain a cone heal and have any fundamental changes to size, shape, implementation.

So if you like cone heals, you like LoD. you can't like one and not the other. it's really pretty simple.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11030
Um.. it is bias.

that's exactly what i've been saying. do you read my posts?

He's biased against LoD because he doesn't like the cone heal. He says he likes the idea of a cone heal, but that's either an attempt to play both sides, or a lack of understanding on how cone heals work.

LoD can't remain a cone heal and have any fundamental changes to size, shape, implementation.

So if you like cone heals, you like LoD. you can't like one and not the other. it's really pretty simple.


Well done.. Good to see you understand the word "bias"

I suggest you read more and post less untill then mate.. you don't seem to even understand that calling someone bias while being bias yourself doesn't give you any credibility..

Nor do you understand that the statement you made that i quoted
"but the reality is that if you don't like the way LoD is right now, then you don't like the idea of a cone heal, period."
is bias..
Edited by Tyriss on 11/11/2010 8:56 AM PST
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85 Draenei Paladin
9255
I like how we are more mobile healers then ever before. I hated standing in one spot for 5mins in past xpacs presing one button on multitudes.

LoD is situational sure w/e. I can dance circles around some of these boss's while healing more so then before. Its all a dance.
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