Light of Dawn

85 Goblin Shaman
2665


Well done.. Good to see you understand the word "bias"

I suggest you read more and post less untill then mate.. you don't seem to even understand that calling someone bias while being bias yourself doesn't give you any credibility..

Nor do you understand that the statement you made that i quoted


i'm not biased against the cone heal... i'm in favor of it. Please explain to me how i am biased?

if you don't like the implementation of LoD as it stands right now, but do like the idea of a cone heal.... what would you change? How is LoD not a cone heal already? that's exactly what it is.

if you have an incorrect definition of what a cone heal is/does/acheives, then you might be disappointed with LoD in it's current form. Or if you don't like heals with position requirements, you won't like LoD in it's current form.

however, you can't say you like the idea of a cone heal (which, by it's very definition, has positional and area of effect requirements) and then turn around, in the next sentence, and say you DONT like LoD.

LoD = cone heal. Therefore, if you hate LoD, you hate cone heals. It's simple, irrefutable logic. Not bias.
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85 Human Paladin
6560
I would much prefer Light of Dawn if instead of simply projecting a cone in front of you, it required a target, and projected the cone between you and the target (extending it out on the same angle if the target is closer than 30 yards).

In my opinion, this would make targeting the spell much more deterministic with less guesswork involved than the current implementation. Character facing is something that no other healing class has to deal with, except perhaps disc priest (but that happens automatically), and makes using the spell while moving almost impossible. I haven't tested it extensively, but I suspect that the current implementation may have a latency factor due to the server receiving the spell cast out of sync with turn events, so it may not always go off in the right direction after a snap-turn. Directing it at a target would fix that.

It would also make the range a lot more intuitive. If you're targeting someone, it's guaranteed that they will be hit by it. No issue of having someone standing 30.1 yards away and just missing the cone. You could use this to get a good idea for the range -- target whoever in the group is the farthest away from you and move towards them until LoD lights up, and you know you'll maximize the number of people hit in the wide part of the cone.
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
I would much prefer Light of Dawn if instead of simply projecting a cone in front of you, it required a target, and projected the cone between you and the target (extending it out on the same angle if the target is closer than 30 yards).


then it ceases to be a cone and starts to be an AoE attack.

see the difference between cone of cold and mind sear.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21080
I would much prefer Light of Dawn if instead of simply projecting a cone in front of you, it required a target, and projected the cone between you and the target (extending it out on the same angle if the target is closer than 30 yards).


Sounds like it would be harder to properly utilize, then. And it would also be less effective to boot, as it would be more difficult to precisely control. What would you do if you had three people in one clump, and two people in another clump 30 degrees on an arc away? If you used LoD as you propose, you would have to center the cone on a player in one of the clumps - not allowing you to throw LoD between the two groups and hit everyone.

I'm not sure where the hate for this spell is coming from, other than that it's not as mindless and faceroll as CoH/WG.
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85 Human Paladin
6955
I'm not sure where the hate for this spell is coming from, other than that it's not as mindless and faceroll as CoH/WG.


I don't mean to be rude, honest.

But I fear it may be true. This is certainly what I hear with most of complaints against it-

No other healer has to do this, this is random, etc. All of these amount in my mind to "This isn't as easy to use." And that is exactly the same as saying it's faceroll- faceroll and easy are roughly the same, seeing as 'faceroll' comes from being able to hit the key (or map to to a large zone of keys on your keyboard) and have it work just like that without further consideration. It isn't literally faceroll, of course, but the sentiment is there- faceroll is just a meaner way to say it. I may deserve to be said, though

Sorry for the explanation there. Sometimes faceroll gets thrown around too much- I think it may apply in this case, wanted to explain why.

My next big thought:

LoD IS more difficult to use, but is also has ADVANTAGES- Most potently, it can be cast potential twice as often or more than CoH or Wild growth. That is HUGE, everyone!

I can virtually guarantee that if we ask for and get an LoD that is 'easier to use' it will come with a cooldown matching and balanced with the other spells that are 'easier to use'- 10 second, like CoH and WG. I'd rather keep the more difficult LoD on no cooldown, please.

Do ya'll see what we mean when we talk about advantages and disadvantages? Some of the disadvantages, even WITH the z-axis business (and Arnath, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't a bug. This one is so plainly a bug it's crazy- it's like assuming getting Martin's fury instakill shirt and using it to get world first Yogg+0 kills isn't cheating- it's OBVIOUSLY so, and we'd be wise to assume so until specifically told otherwise. :) ), some of the disadvantages are just incredibly contrived-

-because most of the time, we'll be in with the melee, whacking stuff, using HR, and hitting the ranged, who often automatically arrange in a sort of semi-circle around the boss, with LoD when necessary. If we get knockbacks and someone needs a heal, we'll use HS or WoG- HUGE raid damage+knockback would be a situation where we'd be at a disadvantage, but I'll be sure to be back here talking about it if we see that mechanic. Under normal circumstances, Latency won't be a HUGE issue.

Meanwhile, we can use LoD twice as often or more, we can throw them out in three different sizes if necessary, and yet, it does comparable healing to the others. Please give it a solid shot as a difficult to use spell. This is the kind of thing that skilled players BEG for- an ability with room to become extremely powerful- IF you grow skilled at using it. I admit that my skills may be too rusty from facerolling my way to the top of the meters in LK, and I'm dang excited to learn!

Also, I just read a similar thread at MMO-Champion, and this was too delicious:

Is Light of Dawn a Circle of Light? No. Does it have to be? No. Why? Because it bloody works the way it is.
- Kelesti
Edited by Fordrus on 11/11/2010 1:03 PM PST
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70 Blood Elf Hunter
980
The point is if people are haveing trouble using it then it does not matter one bit how good it heals. Being unique is like Farsight, so what it is unique big deal. Functional use is more important then being unique. And to say it cost no mana is a outright lie. You do not just get Holy Power just standing there, you have to cast and that takes mana. It is a combo point based system it is not FREE, it just generates combo points i.e. Holy Power

The weakness is the Cone and prositional and missing targets. This pretty much means that LoD is weak for most and some it is strong, hence a bad idea.
If after all this time using LoD I thought I was getting better and it not shooting straight up sometimes even on flat ground I would change my mind, but that has not happened. LoD still today shot straight up and missed everyone, it healed the sky what a peice of crap.


1). I like the emotional wording. It's not an "outright lie" to say that LoD doesn't have a mana cost. First, it literally doesn't have a mana cost. Second, Holy Shock is a very good spell in its own right, and certainly something you'd want to use (nearly) on CD anyway. Think about how LoD/WoG are used: pretty much whenever they're available. There's no HPM considerations whatsoever, because they're essentially free. That's very much something that distinguishes the spells.

2). Being functional matters, but so does being unique. What you're asking for isn't a balanced game. You're asking for the game to be balanced to mediocrity.

3). I'm pretty sure what you've experienced is just a graphical error, for the most part. The heal itself goes in the right direction, but the graphic doesn't.

4). All that said, testing has shown LoD to be a good spell. It's doing its job in Cataclysm raids. To me, that says much more than broad statements like, "For some it's strong, but for some it's weak," which don't actually measure anything.

LoD really should have been given to Ret and Prot as a dps ability. People can argue all they want but a cone "heal" will never work properly or as intended.

Testing has proven that LoD can work - testing is far from proving that LoD is "solid".


That strikes me as inconsistent.
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100 Human Paladin
11845
I'm not sure where the hate for this spell is coming from, other than that it's not as mindless and faceroll as CoH/WG.


Being difficult to use is one thing, not working at all due to your graphical surroundings is another.

LoD is balanced already, so why would they consider tweaking it? because you can't grasp how a cone works?


"Balanced around sometimes missing" or "Balanced around not working at all because of boss mechanics, graphical bugs" is not real balance and is going to cause huge problems down the track.

I'm really sorry that your biased against the cone heal.
LoD = cone heal. Therefore, if you hate LoD, you hate cone heals. It's simple, irrefutable logic. Not bias.


Shamans Spirit Link, Blizz and the shaman community liked the IDEA, but it wasn’t implemented because the mechanics of the spell didn’t work.

I like the idea of a cone heal, but they haven’t implemented a successful, working, balanced 'Cone'. Its still very buggy, and flat out broken in certain situations.

Get the cone working in every situation imaginable and i will be happy.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21080


Being difficult to use is one thing, not working at all due to your graphical surroundings is another.


You should probably be mad at blizzard for releasing 4.0.1 so hastily, not be mad at the spell itself. Bugs will be fixed.




"Balanced around sometimes missing" or "Balanced around not working at all because of boss mechanics, graphical bugs" is not real balance and is going to cause huge problems down the track.


I'm not having any issues with this in the beta raids so far.



Shamans Spirit Link, Blizz and the shaman community liked the IDEA, but it wasn’t implemented because the mechanics of the spell didn’t work.


Light of Dawn works really well in its current form, however.

Spirit Link was scrapped because it would have turned into a buff that was permanently on tanks, meaning every encounter would have to be balanced around it. I'm sure people like AM and PW:B in their current forms, but they're also examples of popular spells that should be redesigned for the sake of game's health as a whole.

I like the idea of a cone heal, but they haven’t implemented a successful, working, balanced 'Cone'. Its still very buggy, and flat out broken in certain situations.

Get the cone working in every situation imaginable and i will be happy.


If you want a CoH clone, just go play a priest :/ otherwise just wait for the beta bugs to be fixed before release, if that is truly your only concern. But from what I gather, this spell could be 100% bug-free and you would still hate it.
Edited by Eloderung on 11/11/2010 5:42 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7ALD6IVO4k

You can see why it misses all the time, pointing it is like using a rifle with the sight sawed off.


I think your video would have probably carried a bit more weight had it shown the problem in a place or situation where healing might actually occur. Not trying to be picky, but Krasus Landing has been buggy since the start of Wrath with the whole "run back down the stairs so you can come back up and get on your flying mount" problem. And because healing is literally never required in this area, I doubt there will be any fast forward used on the fix it button.

That said, if this issue is re-creatable in a place like ICC or even Naxx or Ulduar, it might be a problem worth looking into. As I said, I've been doing HM ICC, and I've never seen it happen, so I'm not quite sure what it could be that causes it to happen at Krasus Landing.

Edited to say: it really should have only been posted in this thread. And that I think edits should return to red text because it looks better. I just wanna vendor the edit line now.
Edited by Hmrhead on 11/12/2010 6:38 AM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665


Shamans Spirit Link, Blizz and the shaman community liked the IDEA, but it wasn’t implemented because the mechanics of the spell didn’t work.


this is an entirely different situation. Spirit Link wasn't something as tried-and-true as a cone, required new tech, and was super super unbalanced.

the definition of a cone heal doesn't change. it can't change. it already is what it is, and that's LoD.

I like the idea of a cone heal, but they haven’t implemented a successful, working, balanced 'Cone'. Its still very buggy, and flat out broken in certain situations.

Get the cone working in every situation imaginable and i will be happy.


I don't understand - what would you change that makes it better in implementation? Don't just say "there are LoS issues with it when using it on stairs." because that's been an issue with all cones since vanilla and won't ever stop being an issue.

show me a situation in which, when standing in a large, flat, open room, like the room where you fight ALL Bosses, that you have problems targeting and hitting people with LoD. i'm betting you don't.

LoD is a cone heal, plain and simple. If you don't like LoD as it stands, right now, then you don't like the IDEA of a cone heal.
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
i watch your video and the only issue i see is that because the human female cast animation ends with her left hand in the air, the last split second of the graphical effect is pointing up in the air.

it's easy to see WHERE the heal is landing, however, because the first 75% of the animation is in the correct place.

i continue to fail to see how you can like the idea of a cone heal and not like LoD in it's current form.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110


I did this at a time that ZERO problems are in Dalaran 4am in Dalaran at the landing is as good as anywhere else. If you do not believe me I have tons of movies on my channel that show it happens quite often in Instances or raids.

The whole point was if it does this at lowest ping time on server at a low population area then what will it do in a much more busy Raid? You get the point?


Awesome! please post the video where it goes straight up in the air in ICC and heals no one. And please post the combat log to go with it as well. I really would like to see them because so far every complaint you've made seems to state that it's working as intended with the exception of the "straight up in the air" complaint which was demo'd in a place that doesn't matter. If you want to present an effective argument, I'm game to listen, but thus far, you have not. That's the point I got.
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100 Dwarf Paladin
21080
As I said earlier in this thread, you can be strafing to the left and pointing your character forward while casting instant spells. If you cast LoD during this time, the entire cone goes off to the direction of your strafe but everyone in front of you is hit.

It's working exactly like intended. It doesn't miss unless you tell it to miss. It's no different than CoC or Shadowflame or Dragon's Breath, except it covers an area some 5x the size.

It's a bad design for a spell that was uncapped, but it's a solid design for a spell that is capped to a few targets. If you miss a lot of people with this spell in 10-mans, then you wouldn't do any better with the spell in 25-mans - that's not a spell design flaw, that's "I cast Chain Heal on that one hunter standing in the middle of nowhere over and over again" syndrome.

Paladins were kind of a faceroll class when it came to spell mechanics in WotLK, casting 1-2 spells that were strong because of a huge sleuth of clunky bandaids applied to the spec. We're not so much in Cataclysm, and like other healers we actually have a solid and working design in beta now that fits the Cataclysm healing model of homogenized healer capabilities. This is a change myself and many others approve of.
Edited by Eloderung on 11/12/2010 8:14 AM PST
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85 Goblin Shaman
2665
As I said earlier in this thread, you can be strafing to the left and pointing your character forward while casting instant spells. If you cast LoD during this time, the entire cone goes off to the direction of your strafe but everyone in front of you is hit.


exactly. i've never seen it NOT hit the people it was intended for, even if the graphic get's all screwed up.

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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9110


Ok then explain this from WoW Rumors and The Light and how to Swing it:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/11/14/the-light-and-how-to-swing-it-light-of-dawns-latest-rebirth/

Apparently misses on the right just like I said. So I was right about what is wrong with it.


The graphic misses. Not the heal.
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