Question about mr robot optimization

90 Goblin Shaman
3680
Do you optimize for raid buffs included or optimize without raid buffs? Just curious what the best method is?

I've recently respected to my next haste breakpoint but robot did the optimization for raid buffs so without the raid haste buffs I don't hit the wanted breakpoint. Granted I have these buffs while raiding.

What should I do?
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
It's up to you, honestly. If you have the buffs in raid, then the optimization is correct. If you want to make sure you have the right Haste all the time, even without the 5% Haste buff, then change it.

Personally, I prefer ReforgeLite over AskMrRobot, but that's just me. You seem like you know what you're after.
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100 Tauren Druid
8585
Skirl, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. When we do the optimizations, we factor in all raid buffs, racial bonuses and anything else that would matter (like crit suppression on bosses). You can turn off the Haste buff if you raid team doesn't have it, in case you were curious. That's in the options menu, look for the checkbox to turn the Haste buff off. It's ON by default.

If you save what you were looking at (click the green save button to the left of your name) - post that URL for me. It will let me see exactly what you see. Then let me know what you think the value should be and I'll look into it :)
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I think he already knows how to turn them on and off. He was just asking whether he should turn them on or off.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Actually, while I have you here, Zoopercat...why is the default PvE Holy build Spirit > Haste > Crit > Mastery and why is the default PvE Holy AoE build Spirit > Crit > Mastery > Haste?

In what reality is Crit ever more valuable than Mastery for a Holy Priest? In what reality is Crit ever better for a Holy Priest than Haste? I just...this boggles my mind.

My Mastery HoT makes up 20-30% of my overall healing, but this thing would tell me to strip all of my Intellect and go back to Spirit, and then ditch all of my Mastery in favor of Crit. My mind hurts from reading this.

This, btw, is why I don't use your site. This right here.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8345
nobody should use ask mr robot. let's remember rune of zeth #1 healer trinket in t13
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90 Draenei Shaman
12770
nobody should use ask mr robot. let's remember rune of zeth #1 healer trinket in t13
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90 Human Priest
11640
nobody should use ask mr robot. let's remember rune of zeth #1 healer trinket in t13


Posting on my priest too, for good measure, as she was my Cata main & my first encounters with mr robot were with her.
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90 Goblin Shaman
3680
Skirl, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. When we do the optimizations, we factor in all raid buffs, racial bonuses and anything else that would matter (like crit suppression on bosses). You can turn off the Haste buff if you raid team doesn't have it, in case you were curious. That's in the options menu, look for the checkbox to turn the Haste buff off. It's ON by default.

If you save what you were looking at (click the green save button to the left of your name) - post that URL for me. It will let me see exactly what you see. Then let me know what you think the value should be and I'll look into it :)


Hi and thanks for the response, I'm familiar with the site and know about the ability to edit weights as well as toggling raid buffs on / off.

My question is what Is the best or most optimal way to reforge. Should I reforge to account for raid buffs or not? Obviously I'm curious BC what if I run into the scenario of missing a haste buff one raid? Just wanted to see what majority of ppl do? I hope this makes sense
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
08/22/2013 05:30 AMPosted by Skirl
Should I reforge to account for raid buffs or not?


Yes you should reforge taking into consideration the raid buffs you have present for EVERY raid. If you don't always have a spell haste buff in your group, which is near impossible at this point, then reforge taking that into consideration.
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100 Draenei Priest
6735
Actually, while I have you here, Zoopercat...why is the default PvE Holy build Spirit > Haste > Crit > Mastery and why is the default PvE Holy AoE build Spirit > Crit > Mastery > Haste?


Yes, why do they do this? Usually I can understand their logic as "for the most common and simplest to apply" But this default seems wrong.

@skirl

I do use ask Mr. Robot and I set mine to calculate with raid buffs. I don't see the times where I don't have them as worth worrying about.

It is not like the other stats I have are wasted, I am giving up stats that are still valuable to hit that breakpoint. To me it is about 1K extra mastery vs 1k haste to hit that other breakpoint. On that day I do not have the buff for the breakpoint, I still have that mastery.

I mostly raid in a 10 man with a pretty stable group.

If I have not had the buffs for my breakpoints in LFR I have not noticed.

Out there in the real world, doing OON or Nalak or such, it really does not have that big of an impact. I usually do those in angry chakra and that has a much bigger impact on my healing than any breakpoint.

As far as no one should use AMR. No one should use AMR if they can't already adjust their stats by hand. Mr. Skirl seems to have a handle on how his stats work so I am willing to have a discussion with him about it.

Also, a lot of Raid leaders use it to determine if you understand your class. If you can explain to them how to set up their tool to show them you have optimized your toon, it will put you in at different level of competence in their mind as compared to that other healer who just told them, "AMR is stupid, no one should use it".

Edit: Don't know what I was thinking with the 1k number it is 4721 vs 7082 A bit more than 1k. I don't look at that non buff number very often.
Edited by Prideth on 8/22/2013 8:12 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Priest
13175
I would not recommend Ask Mr. Robot.

You can use it if you input your own values, but if you go with one of the default "builds" you are unlikely to get much out of it. And yes, I remember Rune of Zeth in t13. Lol.
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90 Goblin Shaman
3680
Thanks for the responses all!
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91 Goblin Warlock
7035
I make the priest stat weights for Mr. Robot. I use this spreadsheet, if anyone is hardcore enough to want to go through a ton of numbers and play with it:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqOEHcTBAvyidFVqUlJLb25CTTFLcTFnN2w5MkVnMmc#gid=19

I am often questioned as to why I don't recommend mastery for Holy priests. There are two main ways you can measure healing: total output, or, healing/mana, or whatever you want to call it. I call it HPM. The other way is healing/second, or HPS.

Holy's mastery is just terrible for HPS, compared to other secondary stats. I hope I don't have to prove that point ;)

From a HPM standpoint, it is actually pretty easy to calculate the average output you will get from each spell by adding equal amounts of Crit or Mastery. I have done this. The average output you get is almost the same from Crit or Mastery.

So, if you pick Crit, you have a decent stat from both a HPM and HPS standpoint. And if you pick mastery, you have a decent stat for HPM and a bad stat for HPS. Why would you pick mastery? Saying you healing 20-30% of your healing with EoL is the same as saying 20-30% of my healing came off of Crits.

Some healers don't like stacking Crit because they feel like it is too random. That's fine - I can show how stacking Crit doesn't actually affect your "RNG" as much as you think, but that's a different discussion. On average, Crit is just as good as mastery.

Now, regarding Haste. It is once again pretty easy to calculate a HPS value for Haste compared to other stats. Haste is significantly better than Crit and ridiculously better than mastery for HPS. What you really can't calculate effectively is a way to measure the total output you will get from adding more haste vs. adding more crit (or mastery). Once you add haste, you will cast more and possibly different spells. You also will often need more Spirit as well, which can pull away from extra stats.

So, my two presets follow from this logic. One is a high haste/high spirit build. This will give you excellent burst healing and a very responsive play style. I can't guarantee you will top a healing chart, but you will be awesome at keeping people alive. We recently convinced one of our healers to try this out, and it was like night and day - they healed so much more effectively in our raid it was scary. But, it's not for everyone.

My other preset is what I call an "AoE" build. This is for people who are more focused on big heals that hit multiple targets instead of working about max burst healing potential - they just want to keep the raid topped off. Crit is a good stat for this - just as good as mastery - with the added bonus of keeping your burst healing potential decent.

For our defaults, I always put a high weight on Spirit. Once you have "enough", I encourage advanced users to edit the weights and add a cap on Spirit. It is one of those stats that is extremely valuable until you have "enough" and then it is of very little value. That "enough" value is going to be drastically different for each player based on what content they are doing and how they prefer to heal.

I am personally baffled by Holy Priests stacking mastery. I have tried and tried to calculate some numbers that would make that look like a good idea... it just doesn't work out.
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90 Troll Priest
6525
08/22/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Swol
Holy's mastery is just terrible for HPS, compared to other secondary stats. I hope I don't have to prove that point ;)


And that's exactly the issue. Crit for holy is only truly valuable for 10man renew-style healers. Outside of that 10m renew-centric healstyle, it's just big wasted heals. For renew, the primarily prevalent crits will be affecting Renew ticks which overall leads to less overheal since the crit itself isn't all that large.

Crit does lead to more raw HPS. That was never a question. The issue is that mastery leads to more heals where they are needed, and crit does not. Crit is more likely to overheal, which is essentially a waste.

I commend your efforts to try and make something so entirely comprehensive, but it suffers from that glaring flaw.

HPS =/= DPS

There is only so much of a healthbar I can fill up, where as DPS may as well have a limit of infinity.

With that being said, Healing isn't JUST about getting the biggest numbers out possible. In fact, you want to get the biggest heals out in the most useful times. To play effectively.

It doesn't matter if you crit as holy and get a mega heal if most of that is overheal. It's just a waste.

Much of this same argument can be applied to haste. Why would I float between haste breakpoints if I could get more healing throughput in the most effective places? I can put those stats into mastery for Holy and get heals when I need them most.
Edited by Naér on 8/22/2013 11:00 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
11195
Skirl, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. When we do the optimizations, we factor in all raid buffs, racial bonuses and anything else that would matter (like crit suppression on bosses). You can turn off the Haste buff if you raid team doesn't have it, in case you were curious. That's in the options menu, look for the checkbox to turn the Haste buff off. It's ON by default.

If you save what you were looking at (click the green save button to the left of your name) - post that URL for me. It will let me see exactly what you see. Then let me know what you think the value should be and I'll look into it :)


This is coming from a guy with a strength gem in his healing ring on his resto druid?

What's your haste level exactly? It makes no sense whatsoever. Even with SotF, you would at least need 5437 yet you have 5334?

You guys mention going for the 6652 HBP on your site. Well it's simply wrong. If you can't figure out the math that going from 3043 to 6652 only for Wildgrowth-SM is a loss over mastery for all spells then how do you expect anyone to take your default values seriously?
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100 Tauren Druid
8585
Trollmendous - you have to ignore my gear right now. You see, I'm testing our in-game mod that will import your optimizations. To do that testing, I have to set up things to trick Mr. Robot, like having bad reforges and gems ;)
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91 Goblin Warlock
7035
Naer - Echo of Light does a ridiculous amount of overhealing - I would argue that it is even worse than Crit from that perspective.

I agree that healing isn't about meters - it's about getting heals where they need to be, like you said. I think that all the math points to mastery being worse for that than Crit. I appreciate your 5 minute glance at my spreadsheet that leads you to the conclusion that it must be flawed on a fundamental level ;)

When I heal somebody, I'm trying to fill their health bar. What good is a tiny little HoT that often isn't used because the other healers have topped them off by healing in tandem with me?

If I'm healing somebody who is low life... crit is amazing. I can sometimes only have to cast one spell to top them off (or someone else doesn't need to spot heal them). If I don't get a crit, but have a bigger Echo of Light, I still have to cast two spells to top them off. Echo of Light, in that case, is effectively useless.

I always hear about this case where you get a crit when you don't need it... how can you say that will happen more or less than the case where you get a crit when you DO need it? You can't! That is why using an average value for Crits is sound from a theorycrafting perspective.
Edited by Swol on 8/22/2013 11:13 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
I am personally baffled by Holy Priests stacking mastery. I have tried and tried to calculate some numbers that would make that look like a good idea... it just doesn't work out.


This is why DPS should not be advising healers how to gear. You have demonstrated that you have absolutely no idea how healing works, what our priorities are, or how we react to situations in an actual healing encounter.

We are not spreadsheets. We do not react to the same things every time. Every raid fight is a different encounter with me every single week because I am not only reacting to the boss and all of his abilities, but to 24 other people each making decisions that may or may not be the same each week.

The fact that you are pushing inexperienced Priests to stack things that will not help them just makes me so angry. The fact that the stupid tooltip on your damn site tells people that the default Priest AoE build is used in "higher-end 25 man situations" while simultaneously valuing Crit above Mastery OR Haste just...

My Echo of Light did 11 million healing on Twin Consorts this week. It was 21% of my overall healing (followed by Prayer of Mending, Prayer of Healing, and Halo). This is a farm fight, so my Mastery HoT wasn't nearly as powerful as it normally is during progression. On Ra-den two weeks ago, my healing went like this: Divine Star (12.6 million, 23% overall healing), Echo of Light (12 million healing, 22% overall healing), and Prayer of Mending (9.2 million, 17% overall healing). This is a burst fight, where everyone is being healed to full as fast as possible, and Echo of Light still came in as #2.

Now I'm asking you why, based on my experiences as a Holy Priest, I would ever gimp my healing by shedding all of the Mastery I have, dumping Intellect gems and enchants to replace with pure Spirit gems and enchants? I have Heroic HLG, the Legendary Meta, and almost 14k Spirit. Why would Crit benefit me?

Would it be there when people actually need healing? Would it consistently give me a return that I could count on in every single situation?

I mean, I could see your point if I relied on Renew as my main source of healing, but I'm not a 10 man Priest. I'm a 25 man healer. I don't sit in Serenity at all (except for a brief period on Heroic Council). I'm in Sanctuary basically 100% of the time. And it shows in my spell selection and what is doing the most healing. So I just...I do not agree with you at all on the stat priorities, and I don't care if you have a spreadsheet that says otherwise. Your spreadsheet is full of crap and wrong.
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90 Troll Priest
6525
08/22/2013 11:09 AMPosted by Swol
Naer - Echo of Light does a ridiculous amount of overhealing - I would argue that it is even worse than Crit from that perspective.


As compare to what?

It falls well within the lines of a standard HoT. Are you going to tell me that Monks and Druids are useless as well, as their hots lead to ridiculous amounts of overhealing? Yet, those HoTs are hte same things that save the day when there is sustained raidwide damage-- in content that actually is dealing formidable damage, it's a much more reliable for healing. It is exceptionally potent in 25H.

I always here about this case where you get a crit when you don't need it... how can you say that will happen more or less than the case where you get a crit when you DO need it? You can't! That is why using an average value for Crits is sound from a theorycrafting perspective.


Holy's mastery is applied from most Holy Heals (except for Sanc iirc, but lolsanctuary, amirighte?)

So yes, it will be there when I need it. And on most Holy priests' logs, it comes up as the 2nd top heal during truly healing intensive encounters. I'm not entirely devaluing crit, but I'm sticking by that in a real raid environment, the mastery does pull ahead in effectiveness.

And I am not the only one who insists this.

I did not say your spreadsheets were fundamentally flawed such that they are not useful. But by simplifying the variables that can and will occur in a real raid environment, you are opening yourself up to error. Crit looks wonderful on paper, but mastery outperforms it in practice on most encounters.

We aren't repeating the same thing over and over to offend you. We're doing it because we're trying to improve your product.
Edited by Naér on 8/22/2013 11:20 AM PDT
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