[Ret-PvE] The Light and How to Swing It, v1

90 Blood Elf Paladin
8950
Nice guide Grog! Requested sticky. One thing though, while the t16 4pc is not as strong for single target, you kinda make it sound as though t15 is leaps and bounds better. The single target gains of t16 are plenty competitive with t15, if you are using DP (you did kinda say this).
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Strictly speaking, though, 4pT16 really is kinda weak on ST next to 4pT15 - you're trading a 357% (2.75 * 1.3) weapon damage TV for a 195% (1 * 1.5 * 1.3) weapon damage DS, and this is all compared to a normal 179% (2.75 * .65) TV. General stat inflation moving from T15 gear to T16 gear will help to close that gap and probably make it feel more like a neutral-to-slight-upgrade when going from same-difficulty-to-same or lower-difficulty-to-better tier pieces. Heroic raiders with full heroic tier will probably be holding onto their 4pT15 for a while, though, unless SoO's fights are so heavily laden with adds to AoE/cleave that the FreeDS is going to feel mandatory - and, to be fair, from what I've seen, that may well be the case.

These item level jumps are ridiculous, and are doing absurd things to weapon damage in the process, which is really what makes the transition difficult. 4pT16 isn't bad, on paper or (likely) in practice, but it also just doesn't have the sheer zazz-effect that 4pT15 does.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8950
Strictly speaking, though, 4pT16 really is kinda weak on ST next to 4pT15 - youre trading a 357% (2.75 * 1.3) weapon damage TV for a 195% (1 * 1.5 * 1.3) weapon damage DS, and this is all compared to a normal 179% (2.75 * .65) TV. General stat inflation moving from T15 gear to T16 gear will help to close that gap and probably make it feel more like a neutral-to-slight-upgrade when going from same-difficulty-to-same or lower-difficulty-to-better tier pieces. Heroic raiders with full heroic tier will probably be holding onto their 4pT15 for a while, though, unless SoO's fights are so heavily laden with adds to AoE/cleave that the FreeDS is going to feel mandatory - and, to be fair, from what I've seen, that may well be the case.

These item level jumps are ridiculous, and are doing absurd things to weapon damage in the process, which is really what makes the transition difficult. 4pT16 isn't bad, on paper or (likely) in practice, but it also just doesn't have the sheer zazz-effect that 4pT15 does.


I agree with a lot of what you've said, however in your arg you are ignoring the fact that w/ t16 you can DP TV into t16 proc into DP TV into a t16 DS, which is very strong. Not trying to say t16 is gonna be OP on single target, only that I think you're underestimating it when paired with DP.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
No, no; I recognize the strength when coupled with DP - I was first to call the synergy between 4pT15 and HA, and I had a gut feeling then that this tier would favor DP in some way. True I may not be factoring DP-chains in with my set bonus discussions, but it's unrealistic to assume everyone will convert on a whim. I mean, there are people that have been using DP all along, I'm stubbornly still using SW despite predicting HA's superiority. It's just a matter of trying to look at things in a more neutral light, rather than comparing a potentially OP pairing.
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Quoting from a different thread in regards to the T16 cleave trink I have listed in the guide:
From the ptr raiding I've done, yes. Though the cleave is very, very small... (+2%ish on Galakras - Quite possibly the heaviest aoe fight, in testing it only had a 2.19% chance to proc the cleave)


Just checked the item on PTR, "Equip: Your attacks have a 3.11% chance to cleave, dealing the same damage to up to 5 nearby targets"

1x Upgrade bought it to 3.23% chance to proc on the 553 ilvl version.
2x Upgrade bought it to 3.35%


So, apparently, kinda ends up being quite weak due to the low-ish chance to proc. May still be viable, but it'll take a lot of cleave at once to really make up the lost benefits for swapping out an Eye or Tail.
Edited by Grôgnárd on 8/28/2013 11:58 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
16205
I'm not taking advice from a noob! Rabble Rabble Rabble!

Good guide grog
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
08/28/2013 10:43 AMPosted by Chaz
I'm not taking advice from a noob!


I know, right? I'm so bad I had to leave my old guild run by egomaniacs and clueless micro-to tank for a brand new one made up of the few good people in the old guild; we only went 7/12 our first night with me tanking but never having tanked ToT before! ;_;

Hopefully, though, we can pick up a better tank soon. Got a TF Zerat last night and don't want to let it languish before being replaced in SoO.
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100 Draenei Paladin
11000
I really don't have anything to add, but I like it. It's definitely a better read than the current sticky. I'm guessing you're gonna be keeping this up-to-date, Grog?
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Yeah, I intend to maintain it as best I can - even if I do get stuck tanking (but let's all hope against that).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11665
08/28/2013 11:55 AMPosted by Grôgnárd
even if I do get stuck tanking


Stop that, stop that now!!
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Hey, find me a tank and I'll gladly hang up the shield again. Brewmaster or Bear preferred, Warrior acceptable!
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Hate to bump with nothing to add, but don't want it to get lost, either. Keep requesting sticky, guys!
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90 Tauren Monk
14625
YOU GET NOTHING, YOU LOSE. GOOD DAY SIR!!!
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Post is now highly rated! Hopefully that means we're close to getting it stickied!

Also, updated OP with enchants - how did I forget that!? And why did no one say anything?! >_<
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7 Draenei Paladin
0
Good guide! Thanks!

p.s. oh, and INQUISITION SUCKS! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (Sorry, couldn't help myself)
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100 Human Paladin
8845
Post is now highly rated! Hopefully that means we're close to getting it stickied!

Also, updated OP with enchants - how did I forget that!? And why did no one say anything?! >_<


And now you got one more thumbs up.
I'll be looking forward to how the next Tier develops, hopefully it's not full of Hit Rating!
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93 Dwarf Paladin
14825
Went over the loot lists awhile back, and it's practically devoid of hit. Good and bad - don't have to worry about gemming stam to prevent 10% hit, but we will have to forge for it still, I think.

Also, I've been seeing discussion about gemming expertise hybrids in red sockets to maximize secondary stats for reforging. Considering that my own personal weights put even crit as being .5 of strength's value, I can see the potential but I haven't really tried it out yet. Will do some simming this week and update accordingly.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
17470
I'm stubbornly still using SW despite predicting HA's superiority. It's just a matter of trying to look at things in a more neutral light, rather than comparing a potentially OP pairing.


I've always stuck with HA because of personal play style choice but i really think that if it's handled correctly it can outperform SW. I switched raid teams recently and they really like the damage i'm doing, but one of our tanks (prot pally) asked me about my 75 talent choice since pretty much every guide says to use SW. I feel like HA is underused just because a lot of guides say SW is better when i don't necessarily think it is.

also...

are you Matt Walsh?
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100 Human Paladin
16205
Why would someone report this thread?
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