Why wont healer classes heal...?

100 Pandaren Shaman
8330
Well just to prove my point. Any dps shaman in a scenario, which was on the list the OP presented, can use AG to keep a rogue alive when they are in danger of dying. Also if enhancement shaman off heals are so weak, why are they nerfing them in 5.4?


However, a Rogue in a Scenario who is in danger of dying will most likely be in danger of dying again before the AG cooldown is done, what then? Healing Surge spam? HA! At that point it's better to let the rogue die and just DPS.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
I never suggested that the rogue HAD to be healed in any situation. Just wanted to clarify that other player do have the ability to do it. Of course if you have to constantly heal someone to keep them up you would be better off playing a healing role.
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90 Human Priest
13720
Somurd, the point is, if someone is bad enough to take crisis worthy damage (warranting significant offhealing or even a cd like htt/ag from a shaman) then they will likely continue to do so when those cds aren't up and from the perspective of most hybrids it will be difficult to keep another player up during continued periods of "danger of dying" healing requirements.

what we want to reinforce is smart play on behalf of all players in the group, especially in 3 man heroic scenarios with no healer or tank. the emphasis should first be on avoiding the damage and then in the case of a massive emergency sure a ret or shaman could burn their entire small mana pool for a minor return, or a shaman could use htt/ag but that will only possibly correct a short duration mistake. this is not likely to be the case. if you're taking a significant amount of damage at any point during a heroic scenario, you're likely to continue to do so.

to clarify: an occasional heal or cd is ok, but if the damage is almost killing you, there is something else you can do to prevent this from happening.
Edited by Tsilyi on 8/26/2013 11:06 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
13720
Let's not let this get out of hand.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
I realize you are probably upset I pointed out the shortcomings in the post of some buddy of yours. But I was correct it was a horrible assessment. I am under no obligation to give any follow up information when I claim that. You can agree or disagree, like I said if I cared whether or not people agreed I might make a similar list with correct information on it.

Just so you understand Ill try to compare the situation to something else.

You are saying that I am trolling. Now you see how no one expects you to back that up because its your opinion? Its kind of the same thing.

[removed - inappropriate]

I am being forced to digress by the white knight, its not my intention.
Edited by Omrakos on 8/26/2013 5:36 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
Somurd, the point is, if someone is bad enough to take crisis worthy damage (warranting significant offhealing or even a cd like htt/ag from a shaman) then they will likely continue to do so when those cds aren't up and from the perspective of most hybrids it will be difficult to keep another player up during continued periods of "danger of dying" healing requirements.

what we want to reinforce is smart play on behalf of all players in the group, especially in 3 man heroic scenarios with no healer or tank. the emphasis should first be on avoiding the damage and then in the case of a massive emergency sure a ret or shaman could burn their entire small mana pool for a minor return, or a shaman could use htt/ag but that will only possibly correct a short duration mistake. this is not likely to be the case. if you're taking a significant amount of damage at any point during a heroic scenario, you're likely to continue to do so.

to clarify: an occasional heal or cd is ok, but if the damage is almost killing you, there is something else you can do to prevent this from happening.


If you look at my original post in this thread it speaks to a similar idea.
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100 Pandaren Shaman
8330
I realize you are probably upset I pointed out the shortcomings in the post of some buddy of yours. But I was correct it was a horrible assessment. I am under no obligation to give any follow up information when I claim that. You can agree or disagree, like I said if I cared whether or not people agreed I might make a similar list with correct information on it.


If you can't prove you were correct in your assessment, you cannot claim knowledge that you are correct.

By your logic, I can just say the following;
"You're completely wrong and I know it."(Which is what you have done.)
And by your line of reasoning, I would be completely justified in this and completely correct and would have no further onus of proof.

However, this does not fit with ANY logical system or theory that has any ounce of truth to it. In order to claim knowledge you must have some form of justification, otherwise the statement, "There is an invisible unicorn on the table in front of me." holds the same value as the statement, "I think, therefore I am." One of which is a necessary truth, the other a contingent statement.

We have provided evidence to back up the claim you are trying to disprove, you are doing the equivalent of a child sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting,"YOU'RE WRONG!" over and over again.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820
Eh, just leave it be guys. If he wants to hold tight to the notion that he's better/smarter/more correct than I am, just let him. We all know the type; in hindsight, it should have been obvious from the tone in his first post. It's not worth further argument or a potential suspension.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
If you can't prove you were correct in your assessment, you cannot claim knowledge that you are correct.By your logic, I can just say the following;"You're completely wrong and I know it."(Which is what you have done.)And by your line of reasoning, I would be completely justified in this and completely correct and would have no further onus of proof.However, this does not fit with ANY logical system or theory that has any ounce of truth to it. In order to claim knowledge you must have some form of justification, otherwise the statement, "There is an invisible unicorn on the table in front of me." holds the same value as the statement, "I think, therefore I am." One of which is a necessary truth, the other a contingent statement.We have provided evidence to back up the claim you are trying to disprove, you are doing the equivalent of a child sticking their fingers in their ears and shouting,"YOU'RE WRONG!" over and over again.


You have provided nothing.

Ok, here we go. First of in a raid there are dedicated healers so the OP is wrong to suggest that anyone target and devote heals to them, outside of a LoH or Voidshift, both abilities were not mentioned by Elethia. So there shouldn't even be an estimation of what classes can do in this setting because its not worth pointing out what can be done when nothing should be.

However in a raid setting there are raid wide heals that would benefit the rogue and should be used because they are effective. They just don't specifically target the rogue. Every class mentioned has some and none of them were pointed out. I am not going to point them out because there are so many and I would probably end up missing some.

In 5 mans there starts to be more reason to actually target the rogue and provide some healing utility that all of those classes have. Again they shouldn't really need to because of the dedicated healer, but all of those classes have the ability to.

Finally in scenarios is the time that OS heals are most effective and should be used while doing a heroic scenario with 3 dps. A lot of it depends on talent choices and maybe glyphs, but a good amount of them are baked into the classes without that.

Now the person I was critical of didn't put in enough effort to actually list all of the things these classes are capable of so I am not going to because I don't really care about putting the information out there, I know it and most other people should to.

[removed] I don't owe anything to this thread because I point out that a post has bad information, contrary to what you are claiming.

So my problem is not that you think that I need to add more when I criticize a post or that you don't agree with me. What I do have a problem with, is that you think you have added value yourself by trying to defend something that was wrong even though you haven't done that.
Edited by Omrakos on 8/26/2013 5:37 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
Eh, just leave it be guys. If he wants to hold tight to the notion that he's better/smarter/more correct than I am, just let him. We all know the type; in hindsight, it should have been obvious from the tone in his first post. It's not worth further argument or a potential suspension.


I don't think any of those things. The fact that people automatically tie those things together is probably why you cant admit you were wrong. If you will remember I actually said part of your post was correct.

Its fairly obvious you don't take criticism very well, granted it wasn't very constructive, but still. You admitted it was lazy and still tried to justify it while saying I was wrong for pointing it out.
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100 Pandaren Shaman
8330
Hell, I MS Resto, and when I'm in Ele spec for soloing my options are,
Healing Stream Totem.
Chain Heal
Healing Rain
Healing Surge
AG/HTT

So all my high cost heals. All of which gain none of the interactions that make them worth using and are 20-33% weaker baseline.

Sure I can spam Healing Surge to get someone to full health as Ele. But then what? I'm OOM.
The best bet is for me to just pop AG/HTT or HST and just keep on DPSing. But HST only has 50% uptime, AG has a 2 minute CD, HTT has 3...

Healing Surge doesn't get the 30% crit buff as Ele and is about 20% weaker than it is for Resto.

Healing Rain unbuffed is about 33% weaker for ele. I ALWAYS Unleash Life my Healing Rains which is a further 30% boost.

Chain Heal isn't worth casting as Resto unless you can get all 5 bounces starting on a Riptided target... Ele doesn't get Riptide and has a 25% weaker Chain Heal baseline...

And just for the record, Healing Stream Totem is 50% weaker for Ele than Resto.


I'll leave this here for you. And just so you know it was in support of this;

Shaman

Limited resources and weak heals for both dps specs.
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100 Draenei Shaman
12705


Some will heal you. I do occasionally, when I'm on a dps/tank alt.

Paladins

Protadins usually have enough on their minds, or are using their resources for keeping things off you.

Ret paladins have more limited resources, and their heals are pretty weak.

Priests

Shadow Priests have to shift out of Shadowform, unless they have a glyph (which I believe is fairly rare for PvE use).

Shaman

Limited resources and weak heals for both dps specs.

Druids

Usually have to shift forms, and are often using the heals on themselves.

Monks

Limited, weak healing.

A better question/series of questions, I think, is:

Why aren't you doing the following?

- working harder to avoid damage
- vanishing/using Evasion
- using your healing finisher
- using healing potions, healthstones when available, bandages

Finally, most of the instances you mentioned involve a dedicated healer or multiple healers. If you're taking so much damage that you need healing beyond your finisher and whatever the dedicated healer can manage, you need to refer again to the four points I just gave.


Horrible assessment about the hybrids. You are right that the OP should be doing more.


Shaman

Limited resources and weak heals for both dps specs.

*spills coffee*
Wat.
I run LFR as enhance nowadays, and I top both the dps AND healing meters because of how well the spec can heal. Granted LFR isn't a good judge of this sort of thing, it still shows that the spec can offheal. Elemental not so much outside of Healing Tide (though I do use my clearcasting procs on healing people in H Scenarios if there is no healer running with us)
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
Hell, I MS Resto, and when I'm in Ele spec for soloing my options are,
Healing Stream Totem.
Chain Heal
Healing Rain
Healing Surge
AG/HTT

So all my high cost heals. All of which gain none of the interactions that make them worth using and are 20-33% weaker baseline.

Sure I can spam Healing Surge to get someone to full health as Ele. But then what? I'm OOM.
The best bet is for me to just pop AG/HTT or HST and just keep on DPSing. But HST only has 50% uptime, AG has a 2 minute CD, HTT has 3...

Healing Surge doesn't get the 30% crit buff as Ele and is about 20% weaker than it is for Resto.

Healing Rain unbuffed is about 33% weaker for ele. I ALWAYS Unleash Life my Healing Rains which is a further 30% boost.

Chain Heal isn't worth casting as Resto unless you can get all 5 bounces starting on a Riptided target... Ele doesn't get Riptide and has a 25% weaker Chain Heal baseline...

And just for the record, Healing Stream Totem is 50% weaker for Ele than Resto.


I'll leave this here for you. And just so you know it was in support of this;

Shaman

Limited resources and weak heals for both dps specs.


You describing what is available to ele doesn't really support any argument made for both specs.

Besides that I hardly see how AG is considered a weak heal.

The main point though is that post was angled in a way to make it seem those class had no OS heals to consider, which is erroneous. Your post did not "prove" that idea.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13820
*spills coffee*
Wat.
I run LFR as enhance nowadays, and I top both the dps AND healing meters because of how well the spec can heal. Granted LFR isn't a good judge of this sort of thing, it still shows that the spec can offheal. Elemental not so much outside of Healing Tide (though I do use my clearcasting procs on healing people in H Scenarios if there is no healer running with us)


I refer again to the OP, which indicates single target healing.

I don't think any of those things. The fact that people automatically tie those things together is probably why you cant admit you were wrong. If you will remember I actually said part of your post was correct.


I didn't tie them together. I honestly don't know what's going through your mind, so I'm going off of what you've said which basically boils down to, "you're wrong, I don't care enough to tell you why but you're wrong". You've been holding onto that argument, and have provided a paltry amount of reasoning to back up what you're saying.

Within the context provided by the OP, nothing I said was incorrect. Single target healing from a hybrid is a resource heavy and weak.

Since you're so fond of AG, I'm going to go ahead and point out that it falls under the same category as VE and the other CDs I mentioned earlier. When considering its use, popping it to heal a single player is probably the lowest on my list. Note, too, that the very first thing I said was that I can and do occasionally heal when I'm on a dps/tank alt. That includes cooldowns and single target healing.

Why not just admit that you didn't make the link between the context of the OP and my reply?
Edited by Elethia on 8/26/2013 7:02 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Shaman
8330
Shaman

Limited resources and weak heals for both dps specs.


You describing what is available to ele doesn't really support any argument made for both specs.

Besides that I hardly see how AG is considered a weak heal.

The main point though is that post was angled in a way to make it seem those class had no OS heals to consider, which is erroneous. Your post did not "prove" that idea.

My description of what Ele has is meant to illustrate how weak and limited Ele off healing really is. This only supports half the specs that the statement is about, but I wasn't about to try going into a spec I know nothing about. The statement was only that the specs were weak and limited, not that the capacity didn't exist, it is there nobody is arguing that it isn't, but it is very limited for Ele Shamans, limited by cooldowns and extremely weak healing spells.

But then, you've been just saying, "You're wrong. I'm not telling you why, but only I can see it." And you're telling it to some of the more knowledgeable people on this board... I've tried to puzzle out your logic, I can't and I'm a Philosophy major trained in argumentative analysis...

"You're wrong. I'm not telling you why, but only I can see it." is the same argument used by morons who are trying to sound intelligent, so please show that you're above that level and actually give a logical argument. We've given arguments, but all you do is say, "Oh, that doesn't matter" or you focus on one word in the statement and claim the whole thing is wrong because of that word regardless of the context. It's like taking the statement "Dogs are mammals." and claiming it is wrong because of the word dogs without reading any further.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
Both Shadow and Enh have quite effective support healing capability without major resource constraints.

Balance, assuming the right talents, has absolutely fabulous off-healing on a cooldown and respectable support capability the rest of the time.

The problem is that it murders our DPS. Not just "I look bad on the meters", but "I'm making the fight noticeably longer and harder." In PvP that's not really a concern and the above specs should be doing a fair amount of healing. But in PvE, you're typically better off with the DPS except in specific circumstances.

Also, hybrid off-healing is really only useful as a buffer for when total healing requirements get too high. If you're relying on hybrid DPS to save your life in an emergency, you're going to have a problem. That's not our strong suit.
Edited by Kaels on 8/26/2013 8:47 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
17990
Both Shadow and Enh have quite effective support healing capability without major resource constraints.

Balance, assuming the right talents, has absolutely fabulous off-healing on a cooldown and respectable support capability the rest of the time.

The problem is that it murders our DPS. Not just "I look bad on the meters", but "I'm making the fight noticeably longer and harder." In PvP that's not really a concern and the above specs should be doing a fair amount of healing. But in PvE, you're typically better off with the DPS except in specific circumstances.

Also, hybrid off-healing is really only useful as a buffer for when total healing requirements get too high. If you're relying on hybrid DPS to save your life in an emergency, you're going to have a problem. That's not our strong suit.


Yep, that's pretty much what many of us have said from the beginning (willful misconstruing notwithstanding). Like I wrote:

I'll be glad to drop Healing Tide Totem, but if there is a serious need of that, or god forbid, a lesser healing wave, something has gone horribly wrong, and it is highly unlikely ele heals would help more than additional dps.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
I refer again to the OP, which indicates single target healing.


You insist on trying to get technical so you don't have to own up to terrible assessment, keep grabbing straws. Technically, the OP mentioned multiple areas of the game which you didn't account for. In a scenario AG, VE, HotW and lights hammer could all function as single target heals and that's just scratching the surface. You accounted for none of them.

Even if you want to stray from scenario Priests and Paladins of any type have a good way to save the life of a rogue in any setting. Lay on Hands and Void Shift. You accounted for neither of them.

08/26/2013 06:52 PMPosted by Elethia
Since you're so fond of AG, I'm going to go ahead and point out that it falls under the same category as VE and the other CDs I mentioned earlier.


My whole point is that your assessment was terrible, as I said. So what you have said after that is irrelevant. The reason I didn't want to get into a debate about it and said I am right you are wrong, is because I can tell you are the type of person that will continue to defy reason and keep searching for way to argue what you said to the bitter end.

You could call your original assessment incomplete you could say its full of misinformation, I think it was both. Either way I think it was terrible, that's what's been going through my mind.

I don't have a problem with anything you've said since your first post, I didn't even have a problem totally with the first one. I have just been restating my original critique, which Im sure is old so I will stop.
Edited by Somurd on 8/26/2013 9:45 PM PDT
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
My description of what Ele has is meant to illustrate how weak and limited Ele off healing really is. This only supports half the specs that the statement is about, but I wasn't about to try going into a spec I know nothing about. The statement was only that the specs were weak and limited, not that the capacity didn't exist, it is there nobody is arguing that it isn't, but it is very limited for Ele Shamans, limited by cooldowns and extremely weak healing spells.But then, you've been just saying, "You're wrong. I'm not telling you why, but only I can see it." And you're telling it to some of the more knowledgeable people on this board... I've tried to puzzle out your logic, I can't and I'm a Philosophy major trained in argumentative analysis..."You're wrong. I'm not telling you why, but only I can see it." is the same argument used by morons who are trying to sound intelligent, so please show that you're above that level and actually give a logical argument. We've given arguments, but all you do is say, "Oh, that doesn't matter" or you focus on one word in the statement and claim the whole thing is wrong because of that word regardless of the context. It's like taking the statement "Dogs are mammals." and claiming it is wrong because of the word dogs without reading any further.


Ive decided against wasting anymore time responding to you.
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