Demo Locks, PvE gemming: Haste or Int?

80 Undead Warlock
2525
So im completely confused. On one hand the theorycrafting indicates that haste outweights int in terms of dps. On the other hand, the simulations show int outweighting haste.

I personally went with haste and have been loving it so far but I am starting to wonder if I could be in the wrong here and i dont feel like coughing up the cash for a complete regemming x2 just to test it, having just releleved professions for another toon (which left me poor).

Anyone has experience with both int and haste gemming? What should i do: gem haste, or gem int, or gem for socket bonus (int and haste).
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17 Orc Hunter
140
Maybe this belongs in the warlock forums?
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90 Gnome Warlock
7085
Int increasing the FG's damage, which also scales with mastery, makes me think this would be a rather complicated question, further dependent upon how much of the lock's damage the FG ends up being once numbers are relatively close to their intended states.
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80 Undead Warlock
3360
I'm quite happy with my haste gemming, thank you.
Hand of Gul'dan needs all the help it can get, ya know.
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80 Undead Warlock
2525
Maybe this belongs in the warlock forums?

1) Warlock forums = barren waste
2) discussing Damage Dealing issues/mecanics in the Damage Dealing forum... what a wild concept right? Oh wait i forgot, its actually the ''PvP QQ'' forum.
Int increasing the FG's damage, which also scales with mastery, makes me think this would be a rather complicated question, further dependent upon how much of the lock's damage the FG ends up being once numbers are relatively close to their intended states.

But then again Haste also increases the FG's damage.

Hand of Gul'dan needs all the help it can get, ya know

Yeah i know heh... with 1300+ haste I still have a hard time refreshing immolate every time , specially with this damn ability Quing system vs my ''smash the keyboard' playstyle (i played melee for years :P)
Edited by Stonedsoul on 11/5/2010 11:49 AM PDT
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80 Orc Warlock
1335
Start with Regemming your blue sockets to hit+haste- then reforge spirit where you can, if you cant reforge spirit reforge your crit; to hit until the cap (17%), then to haste where possible and mastery otherwise.
Stat priority:
Hit (until 17%), Haste > Int >> Mastery = Spellpower > Crit
Prime Glyphs: Immolate, Incinerate, Metamorphosis
Major Glyphs: Life Tap, Shadow Bolt
Notes:
At high haste levels (1400+) you can replace glyph of Life Tap
Spell priority:
Metamorphosis
Immolate
Hand of Gul'dan
Bane of Doom
Corruption
Immolation Aura
Shadowflame
Incinerate (If molten core is up)
Soul Burn -> Soul Fire
Soul Fire (If Decimation is up)
Shadow Bolt

-from EJ

IMPORTANT NOTE

General (Haste thresholds)

(As mentioned in the last point) Due to the new haste mechanics; if you are Destruction or Demonology there are certain points at which your DPS will go up significantly for a relatively small amount of additional haste. If you are slightly below (ie: ~100 rating or less below) one of the haste thresholds, I recommend you rearrange your gems to hit these thresholds. Note, getting closer but not reaching the threshold will not get you a portion of the benefit, you have to actually hit these numbers (or slightly surpass them). The thresholds (in a raid situation) are as follows 157, 781, 1406, 2030.
Edited by Fuso on 11/5/2010 11:51 AM PDT
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80 Undead Warlock
2525
-from EJ

Thats my point tho. The theorycraft puts haste as being over int in term of dps.
BUT.
Warlock_401_Demonology Sta=0.0167 Int=3.8362 SP=2.5270 Hit=4.7846 Crit=2.6957 Haste=2.5169 Mastery=2.4201

- Also from EJ
The actual simulations put haste WAY under Int for stat weight, completely contradicting the mathematical conclusions you quoted.

The thresholds (in a raid situation) are as follows 157, 781, 1406, 2030

Is that including the 5% spell haste buff from moonkins/shammies/priests? If so i guess im at the threshold, if not I need to somehow find 70 haste heh :P
Edited by Stonedsoul on 11/5/2010 11:56 AM PDT
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80 Orc Warlock
1335
-from EJ

Thats my point tho. The theorycraft puts haste as being over int in term of dps.

BUT.

Warlock_401_Demonology Sta=0.0167 Int=3.8362 SP=2.5270 Hit=4.7846 Crit=2.6957 Haste=2.5169 Mastery=2.4201

- Also from EJ

The actual simulations put haste WAY under Int for stat weight, completely contradicting the mathematical conclusions you quoted.


Hmm not sure what's going on there. Could be due to being unable to reforge Int. But now I'm confused as well.
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80 Undead Warlock
3360

General (Haste thresholds)

(As mentioned in the last point) Due to the new haste mechanics; if you are Destruction or Demonology there are certain points at which your DPS will go up significantly for a relatively small amount of additional haste. If you are slightly below (ie: ~100 rating or less below) one of the haste thresholds, I recommend you rearrange your gems to hit these thresholds. Note, getting closer but not reaching the threshold will not get you a portion of the benefit, you have to actually hit these numbers (or slightly surpass them). The thresholds (in a raid situation) are as follows 157, 781, 1406, 2030.


Damn I'm so close to 1406 and I had NO IDEA. Thanks for this!
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90 Human Warlock
0
-from EJ

Thats my point tho. The theorycraft puts haste as being over int in term of dps.
BUT.
Warlock_401_Demonology Sta=0.0167 Int=3.8362 SP=2.5270 Hit=4.7846 Crit=2.6957 Haste=2.5169 Mastery=2.4201

- Also from EJ
The actual simulations put haste WAY under Int for stat weight, completely contradicting the mathematical conclusions you quoted.

The thresholds (in a raid situation) are as follows 157, 781, 1406, 2030

Is that including the 5% spell haste buff from moonkins/shammies/priests? If so i guess im at the threshold, if not I need to somehow find 70 haste heh :P


Haste's low weight is because of how it's relative value plumits right after you go past a threshold. Those last few points before the threshold are very, very, very valuable. The points right after? Not so much. These high value points even out with the low value points and put the overall haste weight below int.

All it means is you don't want to mindlessly stack haste. You want to hit one of several specific values, and then stop. Then you start stacking int, unless you can get better performance out of haste by hitting another haste threshold. However, you don't want to do that by sacrificing just int because those points just after the previous threshold aren't as valuable as the int you're sacrificing.

On the bright side, you should be aiming for the next threshold because you got better gear. Not because you decided to re-juggle your gems.
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85 Tauren Druid
11575
As demo with haste its very important that you avoid sitting at 9% or 28-29% haste, as at these points immolate will actually expire before your able to refresh it with HoG, from a rotational ease standpoint the best place to sit would be mid to high teens, as thats where your immolate duration is going to be the longest: a little over 16 seconds. 20% haste is the break even point where immolate has a duration of exactly 15 seconds.

EDIT: A very helpful link, with visual aids! http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/how-warlock-dots-work-in-cataclysm/
Edited by Orrak on 11/5/2010 12:35 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warlock
4750
Like has been said-Haste can be very very powerful, or almost worthless depending on where you are at. This is an excellent article explaining how DOTS work in Cata:

http://cynwise.wordpress.com/2010/10/29/how-warlock-dots-work-in-cataclysm/
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80 Undead Warlock
2525
Thank you Ollin for that, it explains a lot. That being said what would you advise in my case:

I am at 1334 haste unbuffed, 1574 when i use my glove enchant (engeneering).
However, that is an amount of haste I achieved by gemming and reforging purely to haste whenever I could.

Should I just work on getting to 1406 haste unbuffed or should I drop all that extra haste, revert to the previous cap and invest the rest in int?
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85 Gnome Warlock
0
Thank you Ollin for that, it explains a lot. That being said what would you advise in my case:

I am at 1334 haste unbuffed, 1574 when i use my glove enchant (engeneering).
However, that is an amount of haste I achieved by gemming and reforging purely to haste whenever I could.

Should I just work on getting to 1406 haste unbuffed or should I drop all that extra haste, revert to the previous cap and invest the rest in int?


You want to get as far away from 1406 as possible if you can't reach it.

It doesn't look like you can do anything else to reach 1406, even though you reforged and gemmed for pure haste. Get rid of it all. Restore and reforge your crit/spirit to mastery; change all your gems to int, int/mastery or int/crit (if the mastery gems aren't in game yet). Also, go for the socket bonuses, I believe it's still worth it. If you have any replacement gear without haste, equip that and reforge the crit/spirit.

That way, when you do get gear with about 72 more haste, you can change everything back. This may be an expensive endeavor, and the new content is 4 weeks away; it may not be worth it given the time constraints, unless your guild is still pushing progression content.

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