10m's in cataclysm

100 Blood Elf Priest
23130

See, this is kind of what erks me a little.

It would irk me too if i misunderstood the point, as you did.
Just because a player may choose to do 10s, doesn't make them worse. In fact, they may very well have a good chance of being better - but be in a situation where their server just is incredibly lacking in players experienced across several xpacs that have the experience to kill more difficult hardmode encounters.

If you actually read what i posted, i don't have a problem losing to somebody equally as skilled and dedicated if they chose to do 10man. What i did have a problem with is losing to people who are worse simply because they chose 10man. It's a distinction that you are not grasping.
As Dolfin has indicated, they are closing the tuning gap between 10s and 25s. Therefore, a group of skilled 10 players isn't worse than your 25 when they achieve more. They've just cut some of the fat. The only thing they are worse at is organizing a larger roster. Blizzard has given people an "opt out" of that now.

That is simply wrong. You are making a blatant and awful assumption that blizzard will be able to achieve true balance. There are threads littering the cata forums from people in absolutely top teir guilds saying how awful of an idea this is.
I have a feeling that there's a few top guilds that killed H LK with the same 25 people they walked into Naxx 25 with.

i know for a fact, both from personal experience and speaking with others, that you are absolutely, entirely, 100% incorrect on this. I'm not sure how to phrase this without it taking on a tone of pure condescension, but please don't attempt to validate your opinions off anecdotal evidence and experience you seemingly lack.
Edited by Sarkasmos on 11/6/2010 1:28 PM PDT
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Ouch
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100 Blood Elf Priest
23130
Nerd rage turns me off. Glad to see a 10 man change, including increase in difficulty (closing the gap).

Bliz said they are closing the gap. Until I see that they didn't, I can't believe any differently.


Not sure how having a dissenting opinion constitutes nerdrage.

While your optimism is admirable, there really is no precedent for blizzard achieving balance.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5025
O noes! I will no longer be able to feel good about myself for doing a harder version of a scripted encounter.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
23130

I can not make the distinction either.


i am not saying that people are worse AS A RESULT of choosing 10man.

I am saying that people should not have an advantage BECAUSE they chose 10man.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5025
First, I understand this is a personal opinion. However, I feel this opinion is without scope. The argument being made is between a player and Blizzard's plan. So that's the point I will take it from.

[I will] be sorely disappointed when terrible players beat us to kills simply because they raid 10 and it's THAT much easier."

The fault here is that PvE by its very nature implies there is one threshold to overcome (from Blizzard's perspective): defeating bosses/getting achievements; collecting 'points', it is 'human vs computer'. Being a 'better' raid than another is (again, from Blizzard's perspective) mostly disregarded; it is not 'human vs human'.

You are considering this PvE encounter as a PvP encounter.

"10man is miles easier and 10man players have a ridiculous advantage."
"25mans will, as was stated above, slowly bleed to death."

This is a good point. However, 10 mans can, while certainly not the case right now, be made to be more difficult than 25 mans.

Think heroic^2 10 v normal 25; though not a fun way to imagine it. Or, a 10 man could be tuned to where each individual had to 'do more' than an individual in a 25 man.

I.e. : you must CC 4 mobs in 10 man, you must CC 8 mobs in 25 man; the activity/player is higher in 10 man, requiring more effort per individual in a 10 man.

Again, I understand this is not the current state of the game.

"No good player likes watching worse players beat them to kills."

PvE does not exist to boost individuals' egos, and only the ones' whose egos are dependent on PvE should really notice this. Just don't be constantly comparing yourself to other people.
Edited by Moordiq on 11/6/2010 2:36 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5025
I definitely think blizzard should try to make 10 mans, perhaps significantly, more difficult than 25 mans.

I think it'd be more fun to have more of a challenge with fewer people. Plus, 25s wouldn't die, as all the bads would have to do 25s for gear.

EDIT: I suppose if 25s were dying, a good question would be, "Do people enjoy 10 mans more because they get loot easier, or because it's with less people (i.e. people they are closer to)?"
Edited by Moordiq on 11/6/2010 3:01 PM PDT
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85 Human Mage
6440
Why do 25man raids when it's easier to get 9 good players than 24?
25man raids also have higher latency and performance hits than 10mans, at least for oceanic players. Nothing more fun than auto-dcing on 25man naxx whenever a DK casts dnd even if you can run crysis at max and have expensive broadband.

this is so true
most 25 man guild will be 25 man, but if something happend like /gq or real life called, than i'm sure they will down size it to 10.
so yeah 25 man will die sooner or later.
Edited by Änh on 11/6/2010 3:59 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
23130
There is no server spam for playing the game at a harder difficulty level, some idiot will scoop it up in 10man.

WoW is probably the last MMO where anyone should be having e-peen issues and being angry other bad players get their gear.
The game's about as challenging as smashing porings in korean MMOs, except for that token boss per expansion to appease the one or two guilds still trying to be famous.

I'm sorry, where did i mention gear?
You, and the poster above you have a serious issue with taking the arguments you expect to hear, and assuming they are mine. This is not the case.
Carry on with your baseless assumption-fest.

And i'm sure you're an excellent player, i never meant to insinuate otherwise. Surely that's why you have 0 achievements of note in a game this easy. But i guess you just didn't want to apply yourself to such a trivial task, eh?
Edited by Sarkasmos on 11/6/2010 4:43 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
10455
I'm going to continue to raid 25man, because i enjoy it, and then be sorely disappointed when terrible players beat us to kills simply because they raid 10 and it's THAT much easier. This assertion is not based on supposition, or hearsay, but based on experience on the beta, and reading posts directly from others on the beta.
10man is miles easier and 10man players have a ridiculous advantage. Until blizzard recognizes that they cannot reconcile the two difficulties, 25mans will, as was stated above, slowly bleed to death. No good player likes watching worse players beat them to kills because they have things easier. There is no server spam for playing the game at a harder difficulty level, some idiot will scoop it up in 10man. That's something that does not sit will with me, and with a lot of the end-game raiding community.


i like you
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5025
You, and the poster above you have a serious issue with taking the arguments you expect to hear, and assuming they are mine. This is not the case.

I believe you are not aware of your own argument.

When you repeatedly state 'beat by others'-

terrible players beat us to kill

worse players beat them to kills

what i did have a problem with is losing to people who are worse

i don't have a problem losing to somebody equally as skilled

people should not have an advantage (note: advantage over whom?)

you are indicating that the new PvE system of equality between 10 and 25 man versions of raids are not fair on a 'me versus you' level. This is basically your whole argument. If you have any other points (except 25 mans will die, which has been acknowledged and discussed between many people), please, go ahead and embarrass yourself trying to create something out of nothing.

In case you aren't aware, there's this whole system of end game content called "Player versus Player" in which you compete directly against other players, you should check it out.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
23130
Not sure how i'm embarassing myself.

here's the trend: end game raiders who play on a competitive level agree with me.

Mediocre players who have happy killing 6 month old content after various nerfs sit here and argue with me.

It is pointless to sit here and argue with you when you don't even know what you're arguing about. It's like debating quantum mechanics with a fifth-grader.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5025
Way to avoid the argument.

Do you want a solution to your problem? Or are you just complaining?

Because the next step after acknowledging the argument, is proposing ideas for a solution. I'd presume you think the solution is 'don't change it'. But I won't presume, because you haven't acknowledged the argument is "10/25 man PvE being equal in loot/achievements will be unfair in a competitive way".
Edited by Moordiq on 11/6/2010 5:49 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Priest
23130
Way to avoid the argument.

Do you want a solution to your problem? Or are you just complaining?

Because the next step after acknowledging the argument, is proposing ideas for fixing it. I'd presume you think the solution is 'don't change it'. But I won't presume, because you haven't acknowledged the argument is "10/25 man PvE being equal in loot/achievements will be unfair in a competitive way".


Actually, whether or not i have a solution to my argument is irrelevant. It is not my job to fix such problems, it is the job of blizzard. Furthermore, if i had a legitimate suggestion on how to fix it, this would be the last place i would present it, because i know the swarming masses flock to these forums moderated, the self-proclaimed experts who live vicariously through the in-game accomplishments of others backseat driving.

The argument is not about loot. never once have i said loot in any of my posts, except to tell the above poster it is not about loot. I don't raid for loot. I don't care about loot, except in that i need it to progress. In fact, i like that the same loot drops from 10 and 25man because it is the first step in making the two of equal difficulty.

The reality is they cannot make them of equal difficulty. The issue is either 25man or 10man (in present phases of beta it is 25man) will be far more difficult. Adding unique feats of strength for realm firsts in both difficulties would be a nice start to acknowledging that one of the two will always be harder.

This is my point.
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100 Orc Shaman
13575
Do you want a solution to your problem? Or are you just complaining?

To start with, Blizzard should flag achievements as "25" or "10" so that there is a least some psychological reason for people to raid 25.
Edited by Ramses on 11/6/2010 6:19 PM PDT
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