Fistweaving vs Disc

100 Pandaren Monk
9970
Are there any plans to bring Fistweaving up to or on par with Disc? Fistweaving seems so dependent on gear whereas Disc is far more forgiving. I've known plenty of Disc that hardly ever need to throw out a heal regardless of ilvl whereas Fistweaving isn't even really an option till well over 500ilvl.

Why the disparity? What is Blizzards thinking in giving MW the option to MW, but then making it so punishing, when there already is a class that completely rocks at the dps healing?
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
The difference between fistweaving and disc is that disc has no other option of playstyle without severely hurting their output.

You must as a good disc priest use the attonement playstyle that blizzard has created in mop. Our single target heals have very little interaction with our toolkit whatsoever and to not take advantage of AA is just foolish since blizzard baked it into our toolkit in the MOP beta.

If I had the option of not using it in like in Cata and be competitive, I would do it in a heartbeat, but disc does not have that option, while monks do. Fistweaving is generally much more niche and probably only has uses on a small portion of fights, but your primary source of healing is strong as well.

If you want to argue that smite/holy fire/penance is boring/to good or interacts to well with the disc tool kit your just beating a dead horse there, but that's what blizzard has given us and so that is what we have to play with.
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90 Pandaren Monk
15705
Jab Jab Uplift is the reason Fistweaving requires so much gear to sustain. The designed Fistweaving to be one playstyle and mistweaving to be the other style.

That being said, fistweaving is arguably better than atonement due to it's range and higher burst. You can much more easily control where your fistweave healing goes, around than atonement being 100% random.

Fistweaving is our primary tank healing tool in raiding, it does an extreme amount of healing. Both sustained through serpent zeal and burst through tiger palm/blackout kick.

Fistweaving also has the power to cleave. Which matters a lot in t16, most of the fights in t16 are cleaving fights. Meaning we'll be using most of our mana/chi for fistweaving.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9970
@suplift but on my disc priest I could dps heal the entire way through rarely ever having to heal simply smite spamming. When i was trying Fistweaving in my healing gear, it wasn't working out so well and I was going OOM constantly.

From what I understand reading guides, you really can't Fistweave efficiently till a very high iLvl.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
There is more of a trade off with fistweaving, whereas Disc does their normal healing while getting the bonus of DPS. I feel like the MW tradeoff is where it should be, while Disc just gets a bonus of dps in MoP.

So maybe, fistweaving should be as gear dependent, but that's the only thing I might not like about it. However once you get the gear its a moot point.

The problem with disc is that they have no real mainstay source of healing outside of atonement, so if they had to have a tradeoff they might just be considered an inferior healer. That is kind of lame, so in MoP they just appear to get the dps as a bonus, which is a little imbalanced. Without adding more substance to Disc you kind of have to pick your poison from a design standpoint.
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100 Draenei Priest
8735
08/28/2013 02:16 PMPosted by Gravelfist
@suplift but on my disc priest I could dps heal the entire way through rarely ever having to heal simply smite spamming. When i was trying Fistweaving in my healing gear, it wasn't working out so well and I was going OOM constantly.

LFR is srsbsns

During aoe healing phases that aren't grossly overgeared, Disc drops atonement down to Penance and Holy fire to keep building Evangelism stacks.

Fistweaving and Atonement are different, I'm not sure why you think they have to be the same thing.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9970

Fistweaving and Atonement are different, I'm not sure why you think they have to be the same thing.


They are both dps to heal play styles which is why they are compared.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
Druids and Monks both rely on HoTs and instant abilities. Does that mean they should be compared, despite their toolkits operating in a completely different way?

Just because two things look the same at the most superficial level does not mean they ought to be compared. Fistweaving and Mistweaving are intentionally two entirely separate styles of healing; Atonement healing is a requirement for good Discipline play.

If anything, Atonement needs to be dialed down further—but that has nothing to do with Fistweaving, and everything to do with Discipline becoming a bland, three-trick pony.
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90 Undead Monk
13535
but on my disc priest I could dps heal the entire way through rarely ever having to heal simply smite spamming


Are you judging this by LFR?
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100 Pandaren Monk
9970
08/28/2013 02:39 PMPosted by Dijital
but on my disc priest I could dps heal the entire way through rarely ever having to heal simply smite spamming


Are you judging this by LFR?


I'm judging this leveling from 1-90. After your gear reaches a certain point, fistweaving is viable, but independent of that gear, it's not.
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
I'm judging this leveling from 1-90. After your gear reaches a certain point, fistweaving is viable, but independent of that gear, it's not.


/facepalm

Blizzard does not care about leveling and balancing things while leveling. The most they ever cared about was nerfing the offensive power of holy shock and penance at a certain level because people cried to much.

Have you ever come across a prot warrior while leveling in heirlooms? Say hi to one shot shield slam and wondering wtf just happened.
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100 Pandaren Monk
9970
08/28/2013 02:48 PMPosted by Rapsidy
I'm judging this leveling from 1-90. After your gear reaches a certain point, fistweaving is viable, but independent of that gear, it's not.


/facepalm

Blizzard does not care about leveling and balancing things while leveling. The most they ever cared about was nerfing the offensive power of holy shock and penance at a certain level because people cried to much.

Have you ever come across a prot warrior while leveling in heirlooms? Say hi to one shot shield slam and wondering wtf just happened.


Keep on /facepalming till you knock some sense into yourself. The game is not really balanced around BiS either.

A warrior in BiS is much different than a fresh max level warrior, yet Blizzard over the years has balanced that out a bit.

Why do your jimmies get rustled at the possibility of fist weaving being made more efficient?
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100 Gnome Monk
16875


Are you judging this by LFR?


I'm judging this leveling from 1-90. After your gear reaches a certain point, fistweaving is viable, but independent of that gear, it's not.


What do you mean by viable? You won't heal 100% by punching things but you really don't do that at a high gear level either. I mostly fistweaved from 10-90 since until around 80 mana regen is so over the top you can totally bungle your fist weaving priority and still be fine.

Even at quest green and blue gear levels at 90 I could do a fair amount (40k+ single target) of dps if the tank was over geared and no one did anything really bad.

Mind you I had to dial back a bit, switch to mist weaving a few times, and and drink more mana tea than Captain Jean Luc Picard of the USS Enterprise but it worked out okay. I couldn't sustain it but lasted long enough for a 5 man boss.

Edit: I will add that as a gnome I do have the OP Expanded Mind racial which gives me more mana for more mana back from Muscle Memory.
Edited by Kipery on 8/28/2013 3:00 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
13955
08/28/2013 02:51 PMPosted by Gravelfist
A warrior in BiS is much different than a fresh max level warrior, yet Blizzard over the years has balanced that out a bit.


All classes are vastly different from freshly maxed to heavily geared. Discipline is no different. Please stop trying to compare apples to grapples.
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100 Tauren Priest
20890
Please stop trying to compare apples to grapples.


O can I have a grapple?

On a serious note tho to go with what Ele said there's a reason why most classes and specs have stat breakpoints and how to gear based on those breakpoints. Fistweaving and mistweaving is no different.

A fresh disc priest is not going to be able to heal with the same spell priority or *rotation* like a geared disc priest would in raids/dungeons/w.e or go for the same stats until they up their gear, and neither should you expect to do the same with fistweaving.

And as pointed out by Kipery, you can easily fistweave for the content you should be doing which is random dungeons/random heroics and random scenarios. I would at this point assume that it's a pebkac error.

The 5 man dungeons of mists are so braindead easy that you can run them without a healer for most of the fights and not even notice the healer gone unless every single person in the group is a fresh 90 at which in this point of the game is highly unlikely (altho not unheard of)
Edited by Rapsidy on 8/28/2013 8:30 PM PDT
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100 Undead Priest
10715
There is no bias in the opening poster's complaints.
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100 Pandaren Monk
10135
There is no bias in the opening poster's complaints.


I don't think there is much and I think its a totally valid gripe. It probably seems like its more of an issue to someone without gear and less of an issue to someone with gear.

Someone mentioned being able to achieve different things with different break points on gear is similar and it is. But its really not quite the same because being mana neutral with fistweaving allows for a totally different play style as opposed to the differences in play with different haste breakpoints.

The problem, I think, was comparing it to disc. Not because they aren't worth comparing, they both do healing through damage its virtually the same thing just difference in how that healing manifests. But with Disc its not really a bonus as much as a requirement.

A MW is more than capable of healing everything required without using Eminence, even if its not the most optimal things to do. However I think Disc would be severely hamstringed if you took away their ability to Atonement heal. Even if you gave them another way to do evangelism.
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90 Troll Priest
12105

A MW is more than capable of healing everything required without using Eminence, even if its not the most optimal things to do. However I think Disc would be severely hamstringed if you took away their ability to Atonement heal. Even if you gave them another way to do evangelism.


And this is why people are getting sidetracked by the OP. MW can either or, Disc cannot. Trying to compare them blurs the legit concerns of MW because it really is apples and... grapples.
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90 Pandaren Monk
LA
16675
I agree, fistweaving and atonement are different. Atonement improves disc priest healing, fistweaving generally reduces mistweaver healing.
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90 Pandaren Priest
15190
Well, it was, actually, MUCH BETTER than the disc priest atonement in tier 14. Jab-Jab-Uplift was awesome on constant damage fights like Garalon or damage modifier fights like Mel'jarak.

Then it got nerfed to the ground.

The bread and butter of disc is still spirit shell.. not atonement, even if atonement is really good in 10 man or LFR.
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