Best raid AoE healing class, good with mana

100 Pandaren Monk
10495
Mistweavers are THE strongest raid healer in 10 man for that reason.


Yeah, MW is the BEST in 10m raid. MW aoe healing is instant. we can heal 10m instantly. MW can have rdruid tranquility in every 1.5 min (good use of TFT, CHI BREW and UPLIFT). MW can solo heal every quake from Tortos 10N.
Edited by Xingling on 8/28/2013 7:49 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
8435
I think I have decided for priest, specially holy, but I'm worried about having to keep the hot up at all times... Is that really needed to keep up at all times? That'd feel like playing the druid with hots anyways...


You want to see big numbers and raid 25man, go Holy Priest or Resto Druid.

I don't know Holy Priest mechanics well at all. But my understanding is it's not all that different from resto druid, just applied differently - Mastery = HoT.

And quite frankly, Holy Priest is OP and only getting buffed more. No other 25man raid healer can even come close to their throughput in my experiences - All things being equal
Edited by Tonydanza on 8/28/2013 7:58 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Rogue
8255
08/27/2013 01:16 PMPosted by Mythrose
I must say even though Holy has great AoE heals, for total throughput, Disc blows it away.

People, come on. You're hurting my brain! Disc throughput ceiling is complete bottom of the barrel, holy completely blows it out of the water. Like, it's not even close.


I assume that's why raids want disc instead of holy. Throughput is not just "Gee George, how much did I heal?". Throughput is how much damage is healed plus damage avoided (aka shielding). A shield is just as good and at times better than a heal.

When specced Disc, our raids have a MUCH easier time than when I spec Holy and yes this includes reforging, etc. Once gear gets better you will find that Disc's throughput is crazy...assuming you know how to do it correctly. Disc is not just about atonement healing. let me say that again, Disc is not just about atonement healing.

Disc is much more useful on fights that include movement. Peopple can't always stand in sparklies to get the full benefit of ground heals. Holy suffers from massive mana issue compared to Disc. You can aoe heal as disc not to mention a smart disc priest knows how to aoe shield prior to a big boom, which can save a raid.

Example: Bob is part of a 40 man raid and the boss is about to drop his aoe turd. Bob is at 30% health along with several other people. Unless Bob gets pulled up prior to the aoe, Bob and his other lower health comrades are dead. A Disc Priest can pre-shield just before the aoe damage keeping Bob and his comrades alive allowing heals to occur after the big boom. Guess what...that's part of throughput. Damage avoided (shielded) > damage healed.

You apparently have no clue how to properly play disc if you think it has low throughput. Just because Holy can spam AOE doesn't mean Disc can't. It's in a different form (via shielding) on a very short cd that can easily save a raid and has VERY HIGH throughput.
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90 Gnome Rogue
8255
I think I have decided for priest, specially holy, but I'm worried about having to keep the hot up at all times... Is that really needed to keep up at all times? That'd feel like playing the druid with hots anyways...


I wouldn't suggest keeping HoT's up all the time. It's a surefire way of running out of mana. Holy has sever mana issues atm (not sure if it's getting buffed in the next patch...I haven't fully read the notes). HP's have a lot of aoe heals at their disposal so it's not necessary to spam renew on people.

If you are running an instance, you can use the single target chakra and keep renew up on the tank. Your chakra heal resets the cd on renew so in general you won't have to waste mana putting it back on.
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90 Troll Priest
6525
I assume that's why raids want disc instead of holy. Throughput is not just "Gee George, how much did I heal?". Throughput is how much damage is healed plus damage avoided (aka shielding). A shield is just as good and at times better than a heal.


Except when there is a lot of damage going out (25N, 25H, 10H and in some 10N) Disc falls behind in throughput. Why? Because I have NOTHING to do after my absorbs have been used up. I can use AA + PoH/Priest 90 talent/PoM but these skills do not have the same synergy as they do with Holy. Holy literally can just pump out insane amounts of heals. And much easier than disc can.

When specced Disc, our raids have a MUCH easier time than when I spec Holy and yes this includes reforging, etc. Once gear gets better you will find that Disc's throughput is crazy...assuming you know how to do it correctly. Disc is not just about atonement healing. let me say that again, Disc is not just about atonement healing.


You're correct in that atonement is only a piece of our healing toolkit. However, our throughput is only crazy when sniping out everyone else. Druids, Holy Priests, Rshams, MW Monks and even Hpals can put us to shame in this regard. A raid does not need a disc priest. The only fight this tier than maybe "needed" a disc is Heroic Horridon, and even then, only during cutting edge progression to really buffer everyone from Dire call. It's most certainly possible to clear it without a disc priest.

Spirit Shell, justifiably limited by it's 1 min CD is powerful when abilties line up with it. But what about fights like Dark Animus? Holy shines here. Spirit Shell can only really blanket a raid every 1 minute. Holy can put out just as much healing as there would be absorbs quickly and this is only limited by mana, which as I've stated, at higher gear levels isn't as much of an issue. PW: Barrier is powerful, insanely so--but people must be stacked (not always possible).

Disc is much more useful on fights that include movement. Peopple can't always stand in sparklies to get the full benefit of ground heals. Holy suffers from massive mana issue compared to Disc. You can aoe heal as disc not to mention a smart disc priest knows how to aoe shield prior to a big boom, which can save a raid.


HW: Sanctuary is arguably, the most useless skill in a Holy Priest's spellbook. Holy actually does just as well if not better in high movement encounters. I'd say that all in all, we're probably equal here. Holy has more raid CD utility as Divine Hymn is nicer than PW:Barrier sometimes. PW:Barrier's potency is dependent on how many stack under it. Where as Hymn is not.

Holy priests have renew, PoM (even more potent if you consider DI procs), Priest Talent, generally faster cast time for PoH because they chase haste for BP's, HW: Serenity (a potent instant), Guardian Spirit (instnat) etc.

Example: Bob is part of a 40 man raid and the boss is about to drop his aoe turd. Bob is at 30% health along with several other people. Unless Bob gets pulled up prior to the aoe, Bob and his other lower health comrades are dead. A Disc Priest can pre-shield just before the aoe damage keeping Bob and his comrades alive allowing heals to occur after the big boom. Guess what...that's part of throughput. Damage avoided (shielded) > damage healed.


A Holy priest can also HW Serenity, GS, Void Shift, etc.

You apparently have no clue how to properly play disc if you think it has low throughput. Just because Holy can spam AOE doesn't mean Disc can't. It's in a different form (via shielding) on a very short cd that can easily save a raid and has VERY HIGH throughput.


I'd rank Mythrose as one of the higher skilled Disc priests in the world, I creep on them often to check my own performance against. There was no need to insult someone, honestly. It adds nothing to your argument.

Spirit Shell is powerful in 10m, there is no denying this. But it's not an end all by any means.
Edited by Naér on 8/28/2013 9:09 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
3105
Well the discussion on priests got very detailed now, to the point that it helped me decide otherwise and go druid. I had already changed my mind after the last post, as a fiend suggested no matter how much I wanted to stay holy, in serious progression I'd be asked to / forced to go disc, which I most certainly do not want to.

Restoration druid it is for me.
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90 Troll Priest
6525
I wouldn't suggest keeping HoT's up all the time. It's a surefire way of running out of mana. Holy has sever mana issues atm (not sure if it's getting buffed in the next patch...I haven't fully read the notes). HP's have a lot of aoe heals at their disposal so it's not necessary to spam renew on people.

If you are running an instance, you can use the single target chakra and keep renew up on the tank. Your chakra heal resets the cd on renew so in general you won't have to waste mana putting it back on.


Renew is best kept on the tank, and when I run in 10ms in Serenity (yellow chakra) I try to keep it up on all. Cascade refreshes it as well, fyi.

Holy's mana issues pretty much disappear right around 510-520 ilvl, and even earlier depending on your trinkets. I'd not say that it's so severe that it's unplayable. In fact, I'd say it's a "little below average" on lower gear, and just right on higher ilvl gear. Just have to know when to sit and regen. LOL

There's no denying that disc is really valuable in 10m, especially in progression/lower gear levels. However, to outright discredit Holy, and to say that disc's throughput is greater, is incorrect.

Druids are always a safe choice though. Good luck! =D
Edited by Naér on 8/28/2013 9:08 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
LA
16675
A raid does not need a disc priest. The only fight this tier than maybe "needed" a disc is Heroic Horridon, and even then, only during cutting edge progression to really buffer everyone from Dire call. It's most certainly possible to clear it without a disc priest.
A disc priest is the single most valuable healing spec in the game, including 25m heroics, where the most raid damage happens. Just because they aren't "needed" doesn't mean they aren't the most valuable.

Spirit Shell, justifiably limited by it's 1 min CD is powerful when abilties line up with it. But what about fights like Dark Animus? Holy shines here. Spirit Shell can only really blanket a raid every 1 minute. Holy can put out just as much healing as there would be absorbs quickly and this is only limited by mana, which as I've stated, at higher gear levels isn't as much of an issue.
But Dark Animus is still a better fight for Disc than every other healer (throughput wise) and absorbs are considerably more valuable when you consider that anima font and matter swaps will still do damage around jolts, double matter swap hits can happen on people if two dispels go off within a very short window, etc. That fight just loves having an added hp buffer.

If someone is significantly ahead of the disc priest in their raid on DA the priest isn't anywhere near the same skill level as them and/or the groups aren't arranged in a way to make sure prayer of healing/spirit shell can hit 4-5 people. Ignoring raids carrying healer alts of course, that'll be a higher contribution towards non-disc priests.

Holy priests are a good spec, they are probably going to gain the most benefit from next tier's increased ilvls, and do as much as the other raw healing classes and even more in some cases. The root problem of the spec is that disc exists, followed by the amount of spirit it takes to keep the spec moving without having to sit there and twiddle your thumbs for mana.

TLDR; Holy priests are good but you should almost always have one disc priest.

To the OP, if given the choice be a druid or disc priest. They are all around powerful with very few fights that their weaknesses will come into play and mana isn't a real issue to worry about.
Edited by Pandamonius on 8/28/2013 10:09 AM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
6525
A disc priest is the single most valuable healing spec in the game, including 25m heroics, where the most raid damage happens. Just because they aren't "needed" doesn't mean they aren't the most valuable.


But to argue that they have more throughput than a Holy priest is wrong, in my eyes. They are valuable, but Holy can just keep pumping out more heals only limited by their mana.

But Dark Animus is still a better fight for Disc than every other healer (throughput wise) and absorbs are considerably more valuable when you consider that anima font and matter swaps will still do damage around jolts, double matter swap hits can happen on people if two dispels go off within a very short window, etc. That fight just loves having an added hp buffer.


Yeah, I'd say though that having a strong holy, MW monk, or druid is key to that fight in addition to a disc priest, from what I've seen. Any high throughput raw healing class has a chance to shine here since those absorbs get used up quickly.

I just feel that Fingerz completely devalued the viability of Holy Priests. Just because disc priests are very strong, doesn't mean that Holy isn't useful. In fact, disc is strong enough that you really don't need to beat holy down to make disc look good. Disc stands on it's own, I'd just like to see more correct information about Holy.
Edited by Naér on 8/28/2013 10:25 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Rogue
8255
08/28/2013 10:16 AMPosted by Naér
A disc priest is the single most valuable healing spec in the game, including 25m heroics, where the most raid damage happens. Just because they aren't "needed" doesn't mean they aren't the most valuable.


But to argue that they have more throughput than a Holy priest is wrong, in my eyes. They are valuable, but Holy can just keep pumping out more heals only limited by their mana.

But Dark Animus is still a better fight for Disc than every other healer (throughput wise) and absorbs are considerably more valuable when you consider that anima font and matter swaps will still do damage around jolts, double matter swap hits can happen on people if two dispels go off within a very short window, etc. That fight just loves having an added hp buffer.


Yeah, I'd say though that having a strong holy, MW monk, or druid is key to that fight in addition to a disc priest, from what I've seen. Any high throughput raw healing class has a chance to shine here since those absorbs get used up quickly.

I just feel that Fingerz completely devalued the viability of Holy Priests. Just because disc priests are very strong, doesn't mean that Holy isn't useful. In fact, disc is strong enough that you really don't need to beat holy down to make disc look good. Disc stands on it's own, I'd just like to see more correct information about Holy.


Sorry if I seemed as I was devaluing Holy. That is not my intention. I believe Holy to be very strong, I just don't believe it's as strong as Disc.

Again, I have both specs. I run both specs. Both are very strong. I find Disc to be much better at handling situations because a shield is a lot faster and less mana intensive than a heal. Spirit shell is undoubtedly one of the most powerful tools in the game and with a 1 min cd makes it extremely useful when used properly. Disc shields are ridiculous at times.

Again, when I first started hitting LFR, I blew people away as Holy but always struggled with mana. Once I got higher gear, mana was no longer a problem. I switched to Disc originally on Horridon which as stated, made this fight extremely easy. Since then I've tried both specs on numerous different fights and found Disc to still come out ahead when damage was predictable.

If damage is not predicatable, you have to be able to react to the damage which Holy is much better at.

Overall though, I find that most damage is predicatable and the shielding is a huge boost to the raid as my complementary healers don't have to panic.

All in all - the OP can spec both and go with whatever is better in his mind. In fact, if he has a disc in his raids, then go holy....and vice versa. If there is a pally shielding, go holy. If no disc or pally, try disc. Either way, I don't think he can go wrong with a priest.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8860
When specced Disc, our raids have a MUCH easier time than when I spec Holy and yes this includes reforging, etc. Once gear gets better you will find that Disc's throughput is crazy...assuming you know how to do it correctly. Disc is not just about atonement healing. let me say that again, Disc is not just about atonement healing.


I am aware of that, thank you :) . To be fair my post was a bit on the dismissive side, and that was probably my bad. I never meant to imply that disc was in any way not valuable to a raid, because that would be untrue . HOWEVER, numerically speaking, disc hits a throughput ceiling very early. The reason why you don't see this in logs is mostly that despite our lower theoretical maximum output, disc is uniquely capable of suppressing their raid partners, especially in 10man.

Don't mistake lots of high ranks on WoL for evidence that disc raw throughput is higher then everyone else, though, because that is simply untrue.

Also, Naer <3
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90 Troll Priest
6525
Overall though, I find that most damage is predicatable and the shielding is a huge boost to the raid as my complementary healers don't have to panic.


Definitely. This is really such a great part of our toolkit. DA also has a very low overheal which is great. Disc gives your raid team more room to make mistakes, there's no doubt about that.

Sorry if I seemed as I was devaluing Holy. That is not my intention. I believe Holy to be very strong, I just don't believe it's as strong as Disc.


I'm protective of Holy's image. I apologize for leaping out at you, but I see this mentality all too often and it's really damaging to our class as a whole. Right up there with shadow doesn't do enough damage (The issue not damage pe se but it's mobility/orbs/utilitylolspriesttranq).

Disc is still the go to choice for 10m, but that doesn't mean Holy, especially for guilds just doing normal modes, isn't valuable or viable.

08/28/2013 11:01 AMPosted by Mythrose
suppressing their raid partners,


Snipe all the heals. All of them.
Edited by Naér on 8/28/2013 11:06 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Priest
6670
Well the discussion on priests got very detailed now, to the point that it helped me decide otherwise and go druid. I had already changed my mind after the last post, as a fiend suggested no matter how much I wanted to stay holy, in serious progression I'd be asked to / forced to go disc, which I most certainly do not want to.

Restoration druid it is for me.


There are times I have been asked to switch hit. Sorry I am not a southpaw, I can't disc.

Well I can, but really I do better as holy.

Druids are fun, you should enjoy them. I don't know if they will be healing the way you initially asked, but they are fun to play.

Good Luck.
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100 Draenei Shaman
20815

Don't mistake lots of high ranks on WoL for evidence that disc raw throughput is higher then everyone else, though, because that is simply untrue.


Of course it's true. The data from guilds actually doing heroic encounters isn't some form of propaganda. It refects how each healing class is actually doing. Of course it's not perfect, but it's 1000x better than "Holy is stronger, theoretically, if absorbs didn't exist, and they had infinite mana, and more people stood in fire to make more damage to heal." What a strange line of thinking. No class exists in a vacuum.

As for OP question, for 10s or 15 man flex, I think druid would be a good choice for you, especially with 5.4 coming so soon. They are strong (and will be stronger) and it's a fun class to play.
Edited by Murilo on 8/28/2013 3:54 PM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
6525
Except for a little something called sample size.

08/28/2013 02:24 PMPosted by Murilo
It refects how each healing class is actually doing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8860
Of course it's true. The data from guilds actually doing heroic encounters isn't some form of propaganda. It refects how each healing class is actually doing. Of course it's not perfect, but it's 1000x better than "Holy is stronger, theoretically, if absorbs didn't exist, and they had infinite mana, and more people stood in fire to make more damage to heal." What a strange line of thinking. No class exists in a vacuum.

Except it's not. Lets see if I can make this clear: every single fight is massively overhealed right now, and has been for some time. Yes even heroic modes. Every. Single. Fight. It's to the point now that disc, even with it's lower throughput, has more then enough to meet every healing check thrown at it. Couple that with its exeptional ability to snipe, and the healer rankings begin to make much more sense. Yes absorbs can be more powerful then "actual" healing, and yes disc is extremely valuable for any 10man raid. That being said, my original statement was as follows:
People, come on. You're hurting my brain! Disc throughput ceiling is complete bottom of the barrel, holy completely blows it out of the water. Like, it's not even close.

And I stand by that. Give a holy priest bucketloads of aoe damage to heal, and watch them leave the disc in the dust. By a long shot. Anyone who is trying to tell the OP that disc>holy for raid aoe healing output, is honestly misinformed.

Edit: and apologies to the OP for hyjacking his thread!
Edited by Mythrose on 8/28/2013 3:25 PM PDT
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100 Human Priest
8415
disc raw throughput is higher then everyone else, though, because that is simply untrue.

08/28/2013 02:24 PMPosted by Murilo
Of course it's true.

Uhm. what.

Usually, when people are talking about 'raw' throughput in terms of healing, they are talking about the maximum output of the spec with current gear, irrespective of ability to actualize it (which is dependent on many factors such as fight mechanics, raid composition, or player ability). In terms of raw throughput, Disc is a good bit lower than Holy Priests or Mistweavers or Resto Druids.

In terms of ability to actualize throughput, both in sniping and hitting low overheal, Disc is way ahead of other specs, which is what you see reflected in world of logs.
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100 Draenei Shaman
20815
08/28/2013 03:23 PMPosted by Mythrose
Lets see if I can make this clear: every single fight is massively overhealed right now, and has been for some time. Yes even heroic modes. Every. Single. Fight. It's to the point now that disc, even with it's lower throughput, has more then enough to meet every healing check thrown at it.


Of course absorb classes will get progressively stronger as fights go to farm mode, and people out-gear content. That's always been the case. But disc has been stronger in ToT since it was released.

You initially responded to Fingerz writing, "even thoughHoly has great AoE heals, for total throughput, Disc blows it away." Which is true. He wasn't referring to a hypothetical scenario with extreme constant damage and no other healers around. If we healed training dummies, Holy wins, lol.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13880
I assume that's why raids want disc instead of holy. Throughput is not just "Gee George, how much did I heal?". Throughput is how much damage is healed plus damage avoided (aka shielding). A shield is just as good and at times better than a heal.


Throughput is not total healing; it's the amount of healing (including absorbs) you can provide when the going gets very tough. Disc looks really good on the meters because it can preempt damage. But, Holy has much higher throughput potential.

When the raid has already taken the damage, or is taking heavy, continuous damage, Holy blows Disc out of the water.

Unfortunately, Discipline also brings the much loved straight-mitigation CD PW:Barrier. I say unfortunately because it usually means Discipline is desired purely for its mitigation abilities.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8860
You initially responded to Fingerz writing, "even thoughHoly has great AoE heals, for total throughput, Disc blows it away." Which is true. He wasn't referring to a hypothetical scenario with extreme constant damage and no other healers around. If we healed training dummies, Holy wins, lol.

I feel like im chasing my tail here, but oh well. Plain and simple: holy has both more burst and sustained aoe raid output potential then disc in equivalent gear, hands down. Ie, holy's throughput>disc. How well holy is able to convert that potential into actual wol ranks is another matter entirely, and is both fight and comp dependent. You can argue those details all you want, but it doesn't change the validity of my statement.
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