5.4, EF or SS? And replacing battle healer.

90 Tauren Paladin
6820
whats going to be better in your opinion? the 30% nerf is pretty unnecessary me thinks. also what glyph to replace battle healer? very confused with some of our biggest strengths getting steamrolled
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
I really like Final Wrath as it adds damage late in the fight. Focused Shield may be good for boss fights, too, but that come at the cost of it hitting multiple targets when you forget to switch it back out.

Both EF and SS should be viable next tier, depending on preference. SS is getting the wind knocked out of it, but it should just end up being on par with EF. But that doesn't take Prot's 4pT16 into account, and that set bonus may make EF the superior talent choice.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
9730
But that doesn't take Prot's 4pT16 into account, and that set bonus may make EF the superior talent choice.

Everything I've heard recently is that EF is only worth taking if you already have 4T16, since that makes EF no longer cost you ShoRs, and at that point EF and SS can be considered equal. SS, despite being nerfed, is still basically free mitigation.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9675
Looking at the new 5.4 notes I've been reading, I would think EF would come out more on top than SS. My reasons for thinking is that it won't scale as much being as vengeance got nerfed with mobs, and also the nerf to SS itself. Just my thoughts. I've also only been tanking for a couple months. Been healer all of MoP. Still learning so if I'm wrong please let me know.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
6820
With the nerf to vengeance and SS as well it really beyond me. Ive never had complaints about SS being OP? For a tank who has just come back to the game and am slowly gear scaling i don't see why this is necessary. Tough luck trying to get a blue to answer the reasoning behind it but i would really like to know. Im sure at maybe heroic level gearing it maybe become quite a strong buff, but ins't that the idea? Once you are heroic geared, are you not supposed to feel stronger than your average bear?
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
6820
Also just to add to this, taking into account the 4pc bonus on t16, is a situational heal better than active mitigation? I've heard the term pocket healer be passed around. I don't se myself taking EF until i get the 4pc, but even then, is it worth it? I guess if he ticks scale well with haste it could become quite useful with the 4pc. Personally i would be ok with the nerf, if the made SS, like they did with holy, apply straight away. Rater than have to wait 6 secs for that shield to pop. Even remove it from the GCD.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9035
5.4 will bring a marginal shift in our tanking, but nothing to /wrist about.

SS vs EF: with the nerf to SS, the buff to EF & our 4pc set bonus, EF becomes our new tanking talent. EF ticks 2x to every 1 SS tick, it scales with haste, mastery & crit, where as SS only scales with haste, giving us smoother damage intake. EF also opens the door for Battle Healer to be more useful, as we will be self-healing via EF.

GC proc: with the STEEP diminishing returns on avoidance stats, gearing for avoidance to increase the chance of proccing GC would reduce your effectiveness and survivability. Our parry rating will continue to increase as our gear increases, so there is no need to detract from building haste.

With all of the haste/mastery gear available and the minor amount of avoidance on our tier gear, Blizz is embracing the haste build for pallies - for now - and we are, IMO, in a good place going forward.
Reply Quote
63 Human Paladin
5385
Once you are heroic geared, are you not supposed to feel stronger than your average bear?


Not if the bear is heroic geared too.

GC proc: with the STEEP diminishing returns on avoidance stats, gearing for avoidance to increase the chance of proccing GC would reduce your effectiveness and survivability. Our parry rating will continue to increase as our gear increases, so there is no need to detract from building haste.


ISTM this is only true until you haste cap (which is almost a hard cap for paladins IIRC, since you benefit very little from more autoattacks). How likely is that going to be? And what's going to be a good choice for stats after you cap hit/exp/haste?
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
9730
09/03/2013 02:03 PMPosted by Agntscully
Also just to add to this, taking into account the 4pc bonus on t16, is a situational heal better than active mitigation?

You're not sacrificing active mitigation (ShoR) to use EF with the 4-piece since EF becomes free.

ISTM this is only true until you haste cap (which is almost a hard cap for paladins IIRC, since you benefit very little from more autoattacks). How likely is that going to be? And what's going to be a good choice for stats after you cap hit/exp/haste?

It's a soft cap, but definitely not a hard cap because ability cooldowns will still be reduced at the same rate.

GCD capping is already possible in very good gear (i.e. heroic thunderforged with all native haste). In T16 gear it shouldn't be difficult to reach.

If haste drops enough in value, then the next-best stat would be mastery.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
18785
ISTM this is only true until you haste cap (which is almost a hard cap for paladins IIRC, since you benefit very little from more autoattacks). How likely is that going to be? And what's going to be a good choice for stats after you cap hit/exp/haste?


Mastery and stamina. Or crit if you just doing normal/flex/lfr and aren't dying.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9035
09/03/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Tuesdays
ISTM this is only true until you haste cap (which is almost a hard cap for paladins IIRC, since you benefit very little from more autoattacks). How likely is that going to be? And what's going to be a good choice for stats after you cap hit/exp/haste?


Mastery and stamina. Or crit if you just doing normal/flex/lfr and aren't dying.


Once you hit the GCD cap, "You can have whatever you like"

/drink
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
6820
5.4 will bring a marginal shift in our tanking, but nothing to /wrist about.

SS vs EF: with the nerf to SS, the buff to EF & our 4pc set bonus, EF becomes our new tanking talent. EF ticks 2x to every 1 SS tick, it scales with haste, mastery & crit, where as SS only scales with haste, giving us smoother damage intake. EF also opens the door for Battle Healer to be more useful, as we will be self-healing via EF.

GC proc: with the STEEP diminishing returns on avoidance stats, gearing for avoidance to increase the chance of proccing GC would reduce your effectiveness and survivability. Our parry rating will continue to increase as our gear increases, so there is no need to detract from building haste.

With all of the haste/mastery gear available and the minor amount of avoidance on our tier gear, Blizz is embracing the haste build for pallies - for now - and we are, IMO, in a good place going forward.


Thank you this is a pretty reasonable answer and makes sense. still going to miss SS though. :(

Also just wondering if anyone knows the reasoning as to why they are nerfing SS? Was is scaling to well with vengeance? some trash pulls in ToT(bats) i bubbled myself for about 155k but i was taking in way more damage and it seemed to do the job of absorbing the majority attacks from each mob almost once each. I mean isn't that its function?
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
6820
Oh and what is the GCD cap? Is it 0.95secs? Been a while since this has been relevant.
Edited by Agntscully on 9/3/2013 3:41 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Dwarf Paladin
13820
50% haste where the global reaches 1s.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
9730
09/03/2013 03:40 PMPosted by Agntscully
Was is scaling to well with vengeance?

Basically, yes.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9035


Thank you this is a pretty reasonable answer and makes sense. still going to miss SS though. :(

Also just wondering if anyone knows the reasoning as to why they are nerfing SS? Was is scaling to well with vengeance? some trash pulls in ToT(bats) i bubbled myself for about 155k but i was taking in way more damage and it seemed to do the job of absorbing the majority attacks from each mob almost once each. I mean isn't that its function?


I take this with a grain of salt, but Blizz didn't want us feeling like we HAD to take SS, so they nerfed it, and then buffed EF so we would feel like we have choices. And honestly, it was OP with heroic lvls of vengeance.

The pivot point on SS vs EF will come down to the fight mechanics. If the fight is primarily boss melee damage on a ~1.5sec swing timer, then EF will be far better than SS. If its less consistent melee damage, more aoe/raid damage, then SS might be better.

The biggest thing is knowing that they will both still be useful, EF will simply be useful more often.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
8685
EF seems to be the new go-to talent of choice. I know that Slootbag seems to be advocating that, and he's one of the best Prot Paladins in the world. EF really pulls ahead with the 4pc T16 but I think it'll be worth using even without that, however I haven't seen any dedicated theorycrafting yet. The main point of EF would be how often do you use it, if you use it frequently at all. Without EF, WoG is a cooldown (especially with high BoG stacks), but since EF is a hot it almost seems like you want to keep it rolling on you as much as possible. Perhaps something like toss it on you every 5 BoG stacks (as a general rule of course).

For Glyphs, I think it will depend on the fight. The past few weeks I've not even bothered with Battle Healer just because I know it was getting nerfed. I've normally run with Final Wrath + Alabaster Shield, and then one of Focused Shield/Divine Protection depending on the fight.

Also, the GC change changes nothing IMO. We still won't want Dodge/Parry gear, but it just kind of reinforces the current gearing strategy of if it's higher iLevel has had Dodge/Parry, then it's better to take for the iLevel alone compared to lower iLevel Haste/Mastery gear. Same thing will be in 5.4 - avoidance stats will suck, but as we are replacing gear, take an avoidance piece over old ToT gear.
Edited by Nobleshield on 9/3/2013 7:18 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
6820
The GC is another change i dont understand the reasoning behind. From what i understand on the forums, paladins are the best tanks, currently. After this Patch i suspect we will be behind monks, warriors, dos but still ahead of bear druids. But why so many nerfs to our some of our core abilities? Even the decrease in damage to the alabaster shield glyph is pretty uncalled for. Overall i am unhappy with the changes made to prot in this patch. I sometimes find it hard enough to keep aggro on add groups, without making one of our high damage abilities, AS, less available.

Noble shield and Bralton, thank you both for the info on EF. Feeling better about the SS nerf now. I believe in 5.5 we will most likely be buffed back again once blizzard realises that the changes they have made will be to detrimental to the play style of a prot pally.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
9035
I have not played on the PTR as I lack the internet connection to download the thing :( but the talk I have read shows a negligible difference in GC procs with the change. Remember, they have upped the chance to proc on dodge/parries to 30%, up from 12% on dodge/parry/CS/HotR, and our parry rating is going to grow next patch with new gear.

As a point of reference, take the last Council kill I logged:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vgi4uxglo9ffr1l6/details/3/?s=1791&e=2057

GC only proc'd 10 times the entire fight. With the increase in chance to proc off of avoidance, I suspect it will be similar if not higher, as I try to always target Mar with AS to silence her for a few seconds, increasing the melee swings coming my way.

GotAS - in its current form, a possible 60% damage increase to one of our main abilities is too strong for a glyph...the change is warranted

AoE snap threat is always an issue if your DPS are blowing sh!t up. You use HP which is excellent, just set up a macro where you target yourself, cast HP, then target a mob: extra AoE damage + healing threat. I'd write out the macro, but I suck at it. I usually lead with AS, HW, HotR, my HP macro, Cons, and almost never have issues unless my co-tank is messing with me.

Warriors are getting some VERY MUCH needed buffs, Guardians are getting a few, DKs i'm not sure about(don't care about...personal prejudice), and pallies & monks are getting the nerf bat :) which is part of balancing all the tank classes. I'd like to see them just buff the hell out of the other classes, but we are still going to be VERY good and possibly better with our tier bonuses and the new trinkets.

We will still, IMO, be the #1/#2 tank in 5.4, as blizz has truly embraced the haste build with our gear. I think come 6.0, we will see a major overhaul in all of the tanking classes as Blizz works to make AM more active like it is for monks. Embrace the change :)
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13095
EF seems to be the new go-to talent of choice. I know that Slootbag seems to be advocating that, and he's one of the best Prot Paladins in the world. EF really pulls ahead with the 4pc T16 but I think it'll be worth using even without that, however I haven't seen any dedicated theorycrafting yet. The main point of EF would be how often do you use it, if you use it frequently at all. Without EF, WoG is a cooldown (especially with high BoG stacks), but since EF is a hot it almost seems like you want to keep it rolling on you as much as possible. Perhaps something like toss it on you every 5 BoG stacks (as a general rule of course).

For Glyphs, I think it will depend on the fight. The past few weeks I've not even bothered with Battle Healer just because I know it was getting nerfed. I've normally run with Final Wrath + Alabaster Shield, and then one of Focused Shield/Divine Protection depending on the fight.

Also, the GC change changes nothing IMO. We still won't want Dodge/Parry gear, but it just kind of reinforces the current gearing strategy of if it's higher iLevel has had Dodge/Parry, then it's better to take for the iLevel alone compared to lower iLevel Haste/Mastery gear. Same thing will be in 5.4 - avoidance stats will suck, but as we are replacing gear, take an avoidance piece over old ToT gear.


I'm basically quitting raiding with 5.4, but to my knowledge this is accurate.

The neat thing about Eternal Flame is that it adds a new layer of complexity to tracking that Sacred Shield does not. Rather than merely tracking Vengeance and Spell Haste (both upon application, and your current value), you also need to track your Bastion stacks. It also adds a bit of defensive merit to Crit rating - not enough to really care about, but hey it's something.

I'm sure Theck will be putting out a new Weakaura to track EF similar to the SS ones we've been using all tier.

One little nitpick though: Focused Shield will drastically outperform Alabaster Shield on actual single-target fights. It already pulls ahead on live, and with Alabaster Shield getting a substantial nerf, it'll be a much bigger difference. FS is an extremely potent glyph, it just sucks on fights where you want your frisbee to bounce.

09/04/2013 01:13 AMPosted by Bralton
but the talk I have read shows a negligible difference in GC procs with the change. Remember, they have upped the chance to proc on dodge/parries to 30%, up from 12% on dodge/parry/CS/HotR, and our parry rating is going to grow next patch with new gear.


Exactly. The change from 20% proc rate off of our attacks without any avoidance mechanic at all (last tier) to 12%/12% split between offensive abilities and avoided attacks actually tended to work out in our favor, despite all the "why are we getting nerfed" ruckus that kept popping up. That's because regardless of what stats we stack, we're still going to dodge and parry a ton of melee hits, it's just the way tanking works.

This'll be a buff to AoE tanking specifically, which is actually great because of the Vengeance changes for AoE tanking. I'm not sure it would generate more GC procs against a single raid boss (probably not) but it really shouldn't be much of a difference.
Edited by Tailias on 9/4/2013 6:37 AM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]