For a second, can I talk about Paladins?

MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11980
Right so, some of you know that I love my Mistweaver, I love the way It plays. I love what I does, I love everything. You all know me as Practical, the CMs know me as Practical, and If I went by anything but Practical (which I have), I get the "WHO IS THIS NEW MVP DUDE?"

As a turn of ironic events, I am raiding again with my guild...With my Paladin instead of my monk. Surprise, I can't get away from it.

What the past week and a half has done for me is sort of forcefully look at the reasons why I dislike playing Paladin so much, and what my issues are with it. I wanted to bring it to your attention, because discussion on my otherwise delusional ideas are always welcome. :)

The largest issue that I have with Holy Paladins - and honestly, is a lack of identity in what they do. I'm not talking about in terms of raid healing or tank healing - but in a design space when we look at a class they need to have a playstyle identity. Druids are a HoT based class - and their toolkit meshes well with that. Shamans are an all-around well designed class, and their toolkit reflects that. Monks are sort of 'felt but not seen' healers, and their abilities join together well to reflect that.

In my opinion the issues that Paladins have, and why I see so many Ret/Prot Paladins and not enough Holy Paladins, is the inconsistency in their playstyle design.

The first issue is that there are a set of rules that apply to Paladins. And at first glance that doesn't seem terrible but when you consider that Beacon of Light has exceptions to it's utility, that Infusion of Light has exceptions to it's utility, and now the upcoming Sacred Shield - things stop being about depth and start feeling...Annoying, almost.

Beacon of Light heals for 50% of all of your spells...
Except Holy Light. That's 100%.

Infusion of Light works on Holy Light, Divine Light....
Except Flash of Light .

Divine Plea restores mana...
Except it's at the cost of 50% reduced healing.

Do you see the playstyle consistency here? They are all exceptions, and not necessarily something that's a risk/reward sort of playstyle.

And while some people would consider these sort of playstyle mechanics to be difficult to remember/master because they are technical (and honestly, they'd be right), they aren't very intuitive. And when things start to become un-intuitive they start to become unfun to play.

It sort of makes me fickle because, while I do enjoy going Hammer of Light-and-then-Holy-Radiance-And-Then-Holy-Shock-and-then-Light of Dawn SOMETIMES, I'm a little sour at how much work that is takes when Sensations over there just went "loldrepthehealingrainbby."

What I'm saying is that when you look at all of Paladin abilities, you have to be able to ask yourself where is the underlying connection between them all. We have our Blessings, we have huge tank cooldowns, and we have a very disjointed way to heal a raid - and that bothers me. I liked Light of Dawn at first, but at this point I'm frustrated with it's positioning requirements and less-than accurate spell animation.

I dunno - maybe I'm just seeing things a little granularly, maybe you can put things into perspective.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
-The Divine Plea healing penalty is removed in 5.4
-It makes no sense for Flash of Light to be on Infusion of Light (unless they wanted to make it instant - which they don't for PvP reasons), because FoL is already the same cast speed as your GCD, so you would gain nothing from it reducing the cast time. It makes more sense for it not to use the proc than to decrease the cast time to 0.6 seconds or something.

I also recall that during DS, you made a massive thread whining about how Holy Radiance was the elephant in the room and dominated everything else, and the Paladin rotation wasn't enough work, etc, etc. Now, you got what you want and you are complaining about that.

Your complaining about the Shaman healing style is just as ridiculous and uneducated. You use Unleash Elements before dropping that Healing Rain assuming it's not on cooldown, and if it's on cooldown you decide between dropping it right away or waiting 2-3 seconds to line them up. Then you use HST and ideally Riptide on cooldown and then fill in the gaps with Chain Heal and/or other single target heals to raid heal effectively. It's no more or less work than Paladin healing.

There is also absolutely no shortage of Holy Paladins. They are the most played healing spec in 25 man raiding and the second most played in 10 man raiding. It's a very heavily played, popular spec.
Edited by Tiberria on 8/26/2013 6:28 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11980
08/26/2013 06:20 PMPosted by Tiberria
I also recall that during DS, you made a massive thread whining about how Holy Radiance was the elephant in the room and dominated everything else,


I recalled saying that it was the elephant in the room because it was vastly OP and needed nerfs.

08/26/2013 06:20 PMPosted by Tiberria
and the Paladin rotation wasn't enough work,


I said that we didn't have a good enough toolkit to have fun doing the jobs we were supposed to.

Now, you got what you want and you are complaining about that.


No, I'm complaining about the underlining design between these spells, their interactivity with them and how they play with each other. IMO (O being the operative acronym here) is that the toolkit now is all over the place, that's what I'm talking about.

-The Divine Plea healing penalty is removed in 5.4


Yeah, I'll grant you that.

It makes no sense for Flash of Light to be on Infusion of Light (unless they wanted to make it instant - which they don't for PvP reasons), because FoL is already the same cast speed as your GCD, so you would gain nothing from it reducing the cast time. It makes more sense for it not to use the proc than to decrease the cast time to 0.6 seconds or something.


I'd be happy with making it instant. I sort of miss Art of War.

Your complaining about the Shaman healing style is just as ridiculous and uneducated


Complaint? You didn't read a complaint, you read me take a jab at Sensations because he plays Shaman well - although I can understand how you or anyone else can take it that way.

Go ahead and re-read the post and try to get the overall point of what I'm trying to say. If that's not clear I can try to edit some of it so that I simplify it - but otherwise try not to bring any MVP status thing in it.

Like it's really petty.

Actually edit so that you could clearly understand the abridged version/point of the thread:

Do you see the playstyle consistency here? They are all exceptions, and not necessarily something that's a risk/reward sort of playstyle.


TL;DR I don't think Paladins actually have a style in healing.
Edited by Practical on 8/26/2013 6:30 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11870
We don't. Not anymore. It's sad really that I'm sightseeing the raid artwork because I don't need to look at my 1,2,2,4 rotation.
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90 Troll Shaman
18930
Pretty much every healer this expansion (in terms of healing raids) has evolved into having more of a DPS like rotation/priority system. Every healer (at least in 25 mans) is like "Use X, Y and Z on cooldown, keep up buff L, otherwise use spell D as a filler". It's all part of the significant shift away from the prevalence of single target healing and actual target selection in raid healing.

The majority of healing is handled by smart healing, passive healing and absorbs. They are moving even further this direction in 5.4 with changing even more AoE heals into smart heals instead of dumb passive ground heals (Healing Rain, SCK, Sanctuary, Holy Radiance, Light's Hammer all have 6 target hard caps and act as pure smart heals on the current PTR build).
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
I'm actually almost 100 percent satisfied with paladins in 5.4. A lot of great changes. It is perfect? Nope but it's darn close.

But ironically enough if you want us to have a niche...we have the best personal survival skills of any healer in PVE.
Edited by Marathel on 8/26/2013 7:55 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
The majority of healing is handled by smart healing, passive healing and absorbs. They are moving even further this direction in 5.4 with changing even more AoE heals into smart heals instead of dumb passive ground heals (Healing Rain, SCK, Sanctuary, Holy Radiance, Light's Hammer all have 6 target hard caps and act as pure smart heals on the current PTR build).


That's being done for technical reasons though, since they were generating way too much lag.

I liked Light of Dawn at first, but at this point I'm frustrated with it's positioning requirements and less-than accurate spell animation.

It's a 30-yard radius spell centred around the player.

You are aware the spell has changed since Cataclysm, aren't you?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
I've felt like that way since getting back into the game after a year-long hiatus. I started a thread about this and my suggestion was to create a fast-cast niche for holy paladins. The primary issue with that would be Holy Power generation and its scaling, but I believe designing a work-around would lead to a much more enjoyable experience.
Edited by Lackjester on 8/26/2013 10:19 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
But ironically enough if you want us to have a niche...we have the best personal survival skills of any healer in PVE.

I dunno. As a Disc Priest, I'm pretty tanky. Focused Will is beastly in PvE, essentially 30% DR versus anything particularly threatening (that doesn't deal damage in one big burst).

I end up dying the least due to high damage phases compared to pretty much every other healer in my guild.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
I dunno. As a Disc Priest, I'm pretty tanky. Focused Will is beastly in PvE, essentially 30% DR versus anything particularly threatening (that doesn't deal damage in one big burst).

I end up dying the least due to high damage phases compared to pretty much every other healer in my guild.


All around I meant. BOP's, salvations, sacrifices, magical DR, immunities, dot damage reduction..you name it. We got it all=). Even physical dr.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
08/26/2013 10:26 PMPosted by Skootalloo
But ironically enough if you want us to have a niche...we have the best personal survival skills of any healer in PVE.

I dunno. As a Disc Priest, I'm pretty tanky. Focused Will is beastly in PvE, essentially 30% DR versus anything particularly threatening (that doesn't deal damage in one big burst).

I end up dying the least due to high damage phases compared to pretty much every other healer in my guild.


He or she was probably referring to bubble. Unfortunately, all paladins have access to that and it completely defeats the purpose of a healing class, anyway.

How anyone would consider personal survival a valid healing niche is beyond me.
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90 Human Paladin
4350
The first thing I saw was Light of Dawn in the OP's rotation, and just couldn't take him seriously after that.
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
He or she was probably referring to bubble. Unfortunately, all paladins have access to that and it completely defeats the purpose of a healing class, anyway.

How anyone would consider personal survival a valid healing niche is beyond me.

Ah. I think I'd split the difference then. Paladins have the strongest active survivability tools, Disc Priests have the strongest passive survivability.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
The first thing I saw was Light of Dawn in the OP's rotation, and just couldn't take him seriously after that.


You reek of red herring.

He or she was probably referring to bubble. Unfortunately, all paladins have access to that and it completely defeats the purpose of a healing class, anyway.

How anyone would consider personal survival a valid healing niche is beyond me.

Ah. I think I'd split the difference then. Paladins have the strongest active survivability tools, Disc Priests have the strongest passive survivability.


Undeniable, but it's class-specific.
Edited by Lackjester on 8/26/2013 10:43 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
4350
08/26/2013 10:41 PMPosted by Lackjester
The first thing I saw was Light of Dawn in the OP's rotation, and just couldn't take him seriously after that.


You reek of red herring.


If someone comments on how "unintuitive" a class is, yet fails to use it properly, it simply means, well, he isn't proficient or experienced enough with the class to give an accurate opinion of.

Not that I expect blind white knights like you to understand.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
08/26/2013 05:17 PMPosted by Practical
And while some people would consider these sort of playstyle mechanics to be difficult to remember/master because they are technical (and honestly, they'd be right), they aren't very intuitive. And when things start to become un-intuitive they start to become unfun to play.

But most of those mechanics don't require anything to master.

In raids Beacon transfers just happen; Beacon does so much overhealing that the amount of transfer basically doesn't affect my choice of what spell to cast. It matters which target I put it on, but after that it's fire and forget.

Infusion of Light just makes me cast faster; again, I don't choose my casts based around it.

You want "a risk/reward sort of playstyle", but complain about Divine Plea, which is exactly that. It does take skill and fight knowledge to use properly, but it's the same kind of thing that you get with the "regen more but can't do anything" potions, which every healer should know.
Edited by Tarski on 8/26/2013 10:53 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
0
The first thing I saw was Light of Dawn in the OP's rotation, and just couldn't take him seriously after that.


the fallacy fallacy
Presuming that because a claim has been poorly argued, or a fallacy has been made, that the claim itself must be wrong.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com
Edited by Runtime on 8/26/2013 11:05 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
6510
08/26/2013 10:43 PMPosted by Pospospos


You reek of red herring.


If someone comments on how "unintuitive" a class is, yet fails to use it properly, it simply means, well, he isn't proficient or experienced enough with the class to give an accurate opinion of.

Not that I expect blind white knights like you to understand.


Not in all cases. You're extrapolating too much from the information at your disposal.

Many are in disagreement but you're the only one being unreasonable and childish.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
11980
If someone comments on how "unintuitive" a class is, yet fails to use it properly, it simply means, well, he isn't proficient or experienced enough with the class to give an accurate opinion of.


I assure you, I know what I'm talking about with Paladins.

Now, you can go back to the OP and read the content of the post for what it is and provide some real discussion - or you can resort of ad hominem and just be ignored.

But most of those mechanics don't require anything to master.


That's the problem to a certain extent - we're talking about interactions with spells that are quite frankly - unintuitive. That's what I'm speaking about here. Nothing really flows well.

Infusion of Light just makes me cast faster; again, I don't choose my casts based around it.


Look at Fusion of Light. It gives you a choice in which spells to use. You should be making a choice with it. That's not what I'm even talking about here. What I'm talking about is that there's an inconsistency with a spell like Infusion of Light. There are exceptions to the spell, and that means that what's being left out (say, FoL) is either problematic or IoL itself needs to be looked at from a design perspective to provide a choice that's both fun and challenging.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
08/26/2013 06:27 PMPosted by Practical
I'd be happy with making it instant.


Well it basically is. It casts at .8 sec under IoL which is below the gcd.

There are also a lot of good changes coming in 5.4 for paladins. LoD being buffed. HR being affected by SH if you chose to take it.

I played my paladin for most of this tier. I think they have a pretty good playstle currently. I liked EF and think that they should not of changed it but then again most people thought the same thing and they changed it anyway. Tier 90 talents are real good, most other healers t90 talent stinks.

Bigger issue is that they feel they need to rework paladins at least once an expac. Not sure if they are listless or unhappy, but they just can't seem to find the sweet spot for the class.
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