For a second, can I talk about Paladins?

100 Blood Elf Priest
8860
Do you see the playstyle consistency here? They are all exceptions, and not necessarily something that's a risk/reward sort of playstyle.

Can you elaborate on what you mean here? First off, what do you mean by risk/reward playstyle? Second, you state this as though it's common knowledge this particular playstyle should be the standard, why?
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
0
I don't mind the Divine Plea mechanic with the 50% MS to it - Anohako and I sort of predicted that they would eventually remove it due to the nature of the Paladin toolkit and it's direction - but to me that's risk/reward.

Generally speaking, a players make choices based on the limitations of the abilities/toolkit that they posess, and the situation that they currently are in (assuming they are in a raid/boss fight). You have a good balance of these sort of situations most of the time. I think that Monk/Shaman/Priest are good examples of a nice balance between spell mechanics and response options to any given situation.

I merely feel like Paladins have such a convoluted set of spells that they're a little all over the place. Not in the same way a Priest, or Shaman has a response for every situation - more like certain things (to me) just don't belong in a design perspective.

Once again, this is just one guy's opinion.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8860
I mean, I'm still having a hard time seeing how any other healer has more of a risk/reward playstyle then pallies. Every healer at it's core has different tools for different damage patterns, and self and raid-cd's to use wisely. As for being all over the place, idk hpallies to me feel like they're all about maximizing effective use of holy power for mostly strong single target healing. Everything they do is balanced around efficient hopo generation, at least that's the way it stands on live.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10465
The devs wont discuss healer niche, and I've seen this question asked of them several times.

I think the devs have Hpals in the niche they want them in for this expansion... frustrated into monk healers
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
0
08/27/2013 02:36 PMPosted by Tenacius
healer niche,


Honestly healing niche isn't a big deal to me.

It's healing playstyle. At one point Paladins were sort of known as the "cooldown" class - which I guess is cool, but I feel like it's moved away from that a little bit and into something more confusing.
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100 Blood Elf Priest
8860
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then :) . I layed out how I view holy paladins, and imo it is a quite distinctive playstyle. Honestly my biggest issue with them, as trivial as this sounds, is lack of a variety of spell animations. When I play disc, i see my penance flying around. It's cool. It's iconic. Shaman have their healing rain. Druids have efflorescence. Monks have soothing mist channel. Paladins have....a nondescript golden glow to everything. Dunno just doesn't do much for me.
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
08/27/2013 05:34 AMPosted by Practical
I assure you, I know what I'm talking about with Paladins.

There are clearly basic elements you do not understand.
08/26/2013 05:17 PMPosted by Practical
I liked Light of Dawn at first, but at this point I'm frustrated with it's positioning requirements and less-than accurate spell animation.

Light of Dawn has no significant positioning requirements, and the spell animation is meaningless.

Infusion of Light just makes me cast faster; again, I don't choose my casts based around it.


Look at Fusion of Light. It gives you a choice in which spells to use. You should be making a choice with it.

Infusion of Light would let you replace a Flash of Light with a Divine Light if it proced when you wanted a fast, strong heal. In raids you very, very rarely cast Flash of Light to begin with, so there's no real choice.

What I'm talking about is that there's an inconsistency with a spell like Infusion of Light. There are exceptions to the spell, and that means that what's being left out (say, FoL) is either problematic or IoL itself needs to be looked at from a design perspective to provide a choice that's both fun and challenging.

There's not an inconsistency: it makes slow spells faster. Flash of Light isn't a slow spell.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10465
healer niche,


Honestly healing niche isn't a big deal to me.

It's healing playstyle. At one point Paladins were sort of known as the "cooldown" class - which I guess is cool, but I feel like it's moved away from that a little bit and into something more confusing.

niche playstyle. tomato tomato

Our plate wearing in melee play style was given to monks. The last remnant of this is gone in 5.4 when melee hits no longer generate mana with seal of insight.

Our HoTs are toned back, mastery and shields took a hit, and our AOE is lackluster when compared to other healers. What does this leave?

Single target reactive healing in an environment where it is questionable as to whether it is needed due to other HoTs, Shields and general AOE provided by the other healers.

We can't even find a spot as quasi damage dealers because Monks have been given the melee. Paladins can't even go into melee range without raid mechanics targeting us and wiping raids. I know lots of Paladins that would like to develop a shockadin play style, but again healers doing ranged damage and healing is already taken by priests.
Edited by Tenacius on 8/27/2013 4:41 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
14790
imo Hpally's strength comes in utility spells. Hand of Protection on tank to drop stacks when he gets too much debuff(other tank died for some reason), Hand of freedom(Sul's quicksand, Iron Qon 3rd phase), Hand of Purity(Primordius's Volatile Pathogen target), Hand of sacrifice for heavy tank damage periods. Granted, all other pallies have these utilities, but how often do you see ret or prot pally using these skills on people other than themselves(other than when raid leader shouts for it)? It's up to the hpally to decide which situation to activate which utility. We're not that good with movement intensive phases for obvious reasons, but for stacked/semi-stacked fights we are gods(megaera rampage phase). Based on heal meters for that fight, my healing was on par with the druid and shammy that has higher ilvl than me.
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90 Troll Shaman
13635
Shaman has a response for every situation


Uhhh...

What?
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90 Draenei Paladin
16080
08/27/2013 10:36 PMPosted by Pebble
Shaman has a response for every situation


Uhhh...

What?

Presumably the response is to say "I can't do much, the group is too spread out" or "yay, I'm useful!".
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90 Troll Shaman
13635


Uhhh...

What?

Presumably the response is to say "I can't do much, the group is too spread out" or "yay, I'm useful!".


Yeah, there's just so many things here that don't make sense to me.

But for starters, let me just ask...

You're raiding heroics on this paladin? That paladin? Right there? That 485 iLvl paladin?

And...

It sort of makes me fickle because, while I do enjoy going Hammer of Light-and-then-Holy-Radiance-And-Then-Holy-Shock-and-then-Light of Dawn SOMETIMES, I'm a little sour at how much work that is takes when Sensations over there just went "loldrepthehealingrainbby."


You have a problem with how easy it is for a shaman, wild guess - at least 60(?) iLvls ahead of you, to keep up?

Lol...

Not to mention ignoring the fact that just going "loldrepthehealingrainbby" is dependent on basically everyone except the shaman actually dropping it (assuming that shaman has half a brain and can drop it somewhat appropriately).

News flash, dropping healing rain and standing around isn't going to keep up with a decent pally.
Edited by Pebble on 8/27/2013 10:55 PM PDT
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Blood Elf Paladin
HC
0
You're raiding heroics on this paladin? That paladin? Right there? That 485 iLvl paladin?


Oh I suppose I should say that I'm on like an emergency-need for this Paladin to play. I'd be on Mistweaver, but that's not entirely possible - Anywho that's not what's important.

You have a problem with how easy it is for a shaman, wild guess - at least 60(?) iLvls ahead of you, to keep up?


I think if you read back on the posts throughout the thread you'd understand that my issue with Paladins is the design and playstyle that they have - and not so much with any numerical value that they do or don't bring.

This isn't about HPS, this is about playstyle, etc. I apologize if that wasn't made clear.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
15390
This isn't about HPS, this is about playstyle, etc. I apologize if that wasn't made clear.


What is it exactly about the playstle that makes it feel clunky to you? Personally i thought it was pretty smooth. Paladins are the masters of utility. It's amazing how much easier encounters become when a paladin is present. Can be ret or prot as well so it is not a holy only thing. It completely changes how you attack and encounter.

Though i do believe they need to make devo better for Holy only.
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90 Troll Shaman
13635
08/28/2013 05:53 AMPosted by Practical
You're raiding heroics on this paladin? That paladin? Right there? That 485 iLvl paladin?


Oh I suppose I should say that I'm on like an emergency-need for this Paladin to play. I'd be on Mistweaver, but that's not entirely possible - Anywho that's not what's important.

You have a problem with how easy it is for a shaman, wild guess - at least 60(?) iLvls ahead of you, to keep up?


I think if you read back on the posts throughout the thread you'd understand that my issue with Paladins is the design and playstyle that they have - and not so much with any numerical value that they do or don't bring.

This isn't about HPS, this is about playstyle, etc. I apologize if that wasn't made clear.


I'm well aware of what your complaints are, and yes the fact that you're extremely under geared is relevant when you're comparing "what you have to do" to "what they have to do."

Dropping Healing Rain is not the entirety of the shaman playstyle. Of course that's all it's going to take, your gear is terrible, that doesn't mean it's all they do.

And like seriously people, just in general, don't try to talk about other classes when you have no idea what's going on. It just puts holes in your argument.

Don't know what game you're playing, but Shaman don't have a "response for everything."
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
11610
They did a lot of great changes for paladins in 5.4. I'll list them as much as I remember them.

-Guardian is a 3 minute cd now and it does 100 percent extra healing for 15 seconds, plus 10 percent haste. This is an absolute good change from its current version and a much needed boost from the spell.

-DP no longer reduces healing and it scales with spirit.

-Holy Shock's mana cost has been cut in half THIS IS HUGE. This and the DP change made the Sol change finally properly compensated and it's pretty good compensation.

-Holy Shock is affected by melee haste. Meaning any haste on your gear will lower it's cd. Another good change.

-Eternal Flame's raw hps has been increased by 60 percent or so about.

-SS is a much smoother talent though scaling could be fixed. Still a million times better than it is now.

-Selfless Healer was fixed. Judgement could have stayed at 3,000 mana but even so the talent is again better than it was before.

-LOD, WOG, EF got healing boosts. 25 percent.

-HR is a smart heal on the PTR which if I understand it right it's a boost to the spell but I don't raid 25 man so I may be wrong in this.

-Undying Spirit now reduces certain cooldowns by 50 percent now straight up. 6 min LOH, 30 second DP and 2.5 minute Divine Shield. This is like our biggest survival boost talent. 30 second DP is just hehehe.

-Hand of Purity was further buffed. It's now 80 percent dot reduction, 40 percent reduction on immunity immune abilities from bosses.

Point being all of the main mechanical fixes we wanted for the class we got. As far as number tuning it looks like we might need another boost in certain spells but that is up to Blizzard. As far as mechanically goes we're in a pretty good place. The only thing slightly disappointed about was they didn't change Sanctified Wrath as much as it should have been but can't have everything. And it would be nice for devotion aura to be stronger for us too.

20 percent magical reduction on a 3 min cooldown that lasts 6 seconds isn't glamorous. But then again with the new Guardian of the Ancient Kings...well heh.
Edited by Marathel on 8/28/2013 8:22 AM PDT
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100 Goblin Shaman
18890
I agree with what other people said. While H paladins lack a strong identity sense in terms of how they heal, as a class as a whole, I feel their identity comes back to the massive utility they bring to a raid. I am not saying its fair (since all paladins bring these things not just holy paladins), but for instance if you don't consider them a niche since they are not unique to holy, you might as well not consider healing tide totem for a shaman as unique in the next patch since both enhance and ele will get it (though in a weaker form).

Things like Purity or clemency with Double HoP (both incredibly useful this tier. Purity made a lot of pulls on H primordius easier for us. Double HoP lets you 1 tank when you are not supposed to, but obviously you know these things). DS is incredibly useful on H Lei Shen to be a solo soaker. Resto shaman / disc priests can't do it. Though mistweavers can do it better and resto druids can do it if they have the right class in the raid.

Then consider you have a 1 minute divine protection cd which is incredibly powerful. For instance, shaman's have to talent their 2 minute cd which lasts shorter (though hits magic and physical).

Obiviously devo aura is your equivalent of bubble etc. Though it doesn't have restrictions on range so in some cases it is much stronger (animus heroic for instance).

And then as usual, you have your throughput cds like the other healers. perhaps you do have more of these (and a complete lack of revival / htt / tranq etc).

And then HoS is a killer tank CD which is going to be buffed next patch iirc so that you don't take any damage from the transfer if you glyph it.

A lot of the other healers just can't do these things.

Its like having a paladin in the raid changes the dynamics of the raid group as a whole considerably. This was seen a LOT for this tier, less so last tier. And that I believe is your niche. It might not be unique since ret / prot can pretty much do every one of these things. But yeah.
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