frost mage mastery in 5.4 main stat?

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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
The difference is that when people test such things, they generally don't do 25,000 iterations per stat with all raid buffs active.

After further optimization:

Hit @ 14.99%
Int @ 26,841: 7.81
Crit @ 24.05%: 3.77
Haste @ 46.95%: 4.34
Mastery @ 57.82%: 3.88

That's obviously pushed the value of Mastery down some, but since it's been stacked up even higher, that's not a surprise. The profile might do a bit better if one or two hit/crit or hit/mastery pieces are replaced with hit/haste pieces, but with values of hit this high it's not easy to get it to land so close to 15% (because reforges result in large numerical shifts), so it might do more harm than good.
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Edited by Lhivera on 9/4/2013 5:02 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Mage
11555
Hey Lhiv I appreciate all you do for the mage community but I feel that the general question has still gone unanswered.

So I will ask it and hope you answer.

When 5.4 hits, what is going to be the best stat priority for a frost mage in a general sense? IE
someone just hit level 90 and wants to know what secondary stats to prioritize.

I saw on your simcrafts on your site you did Mastery > Crit > Haste, is that still true?

Also can you explain your above post? It seems that certain stats seem to get better with different tiers of gear, is this because of the set bonus's that they offer?

Thanks in advance.
100 Human Mage
15060
Also can you explain your above post? It seems that certain stats seem to get better with different tiers of gear, is this because of the set bonus's that they offer?

It's because the stats interact with one another, among other things, as well as abilities (and yes set bonuses). For example:
Haste has to worry about devaluing itself once you're approaching the GCD
Crit has a soft cap with shatter
More haste means more casts means mastery is used more
Crits increase the damage return from mastery.
More haste means more crits.
Crit is binary (you either crit or you don't) so it might see less value the more you stack it
What type of fight you're simming my value one secondary stat over another
etc, etc, etc

Fire is an easy spec to explain the phenomenon. At 50% chance to crit, adding one more crit actually decreases your chance to not get a crit by two percent. At 75% chance to crit, adding one more % crit decreases your chance to not get a crit by 4%. Crit loses value the more of it you gain at these levels because you either crit or you don't.

Best way to find out what stats you should be aiming for is to sim your own character once everything goes live, then do it again each time you get new gear. The sims Lhiv is running are just to see how far you can push a mage with the absolute best in slot gear. Something like using Invocation over RoP will change your stat weights (though might not shake up the order)
Edited by Mumrit on 9/4/2013 2:02 PM PDT
91 Pandaren Mage
18820
09/04/2013 01:44 PMPosted by Azuremist
When 5.4 hits, what is going to be the best stat priority for a frost mage in a general sense?


Haste > Crit > Mastery at the start, the relative value begins to shift when you approach the Haste and Crit soft caps. So for mages geared from ToT, the relative values change depending on how much you have of each. As a fresh 90 though, Haste > Crit > Mastery (after prioritizing hit cap, of course) is the best.
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
The thing to bear in mind is that there's a general interaction that happens with every stat: when you increase a stat, that stat's value decreases relative to the other stats. If you were in a place where Haste, Crit and Mastery all had exactly equal value, and then you added a hundred points of Mastery, you would wind up with Haste and Crit being worth more than Mastery (they would go up in value, it would go down in value).

It's a little more complicated than that (Mumrit covers most of that), but that general interaction means that generalized rules like "get stat X to this value, then do stat Y" tend to be less accurate than just simming your own profile to find out what your own stat weights are right now. The values you see in my results above are only accurate for someone wearing that gear with those gems and those enchants and that specific reforge combination. Change one piece of gear, and the weights shift.
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Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
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“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw
96 Goblin Mage
5845
10% haste will increase ur dmg over time by 10%. 10% mastery will increase your dmg by 20%. is this correct? and if so.....surely mastery is the best stat to go for?
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10 Mastery will increase the damage of Frostbolt, Frostfire Bolt and Waterbolt by 20%. Those spells make up somewhat less than half your damage, so the effect on your total damage output is less than 10%.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw
100 Gnome Mage
11770
Let me say this for the record; I'm an attorney, not a mathematician or theorycrafter. I can look at logs and parses all day long and it won't mean anything to me. What does mean something to me is the opinion of the hardworking mages like Lhivera and the others of you in this thread who can understand the parses and translate it into words that make sense for me. :)

I understand what the relative values change and I may have to sim things out to find out precisely what is the best thing to do, but in general, for a mage at about 520 ilevel and going into ilevels which will quickly become available in patch 5.4, what do you guess the new frost stat priority will be based on the information you have? Also, does the new icicles ability change our ability rotation/priority and does it change the talents we should use?
100 Troll Mage
20525
Lhiv, is the Fire PTR sim "Complete" as of 530-7? I'm finding Mastery not falling off as hard as I expected for Fire. (I'm still simming higher with a 5036 haste cap)
Edited by Mageski on 9/6/2013 1:28 PM PDT
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Are you talking about the T16N profiles? If so, they're not heavily optimized, but there probably isn't more than another 1-2% to squeeze out of them.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw
100 Gnome Mage
18480
@ Zagyg -- Simple answer: Get raid buffed Haste to 50%, Crit ~ 24%, rest into Mastery.

That's exactly what it was in 5.3.

The difference in 5.4 is Frost gems INT-heavy instead of HASTE-heavy. That's really it.

-- I have some theories on something a little diff than that, but it would be a fairly different rotation and much more dependent on the fight. I think there might be builds where favoring Crit over Mastery would be a DPS increase -- particularly in Cleave fights.

This is just something to play around with.
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
Best results so far have Haste topped out at about 47%, and you still mostly gem haste, not int (there are a lot of red sockets, so you'll have a lot of int/haste gems).

Note also that you're not going to get the best results as you gear up by hitting one target, then the next, then the third -- because each stat affects the values of the others, you need to bring them all up together. In other words, you don't max Haste, then Crit, then Mastery. You sim your current stats, see which one has the highest value at your current levels, bump that one up. Next upgrade, you repeat that process. You'll find as you'll reach various points where you switch from one to the next.

ETA: Here's the gear setup that is so far producing the best numbers (for ilevel 553):

head=chronomancer_hood,id=99161,gems=sinister_primal_80int_160haste_180int
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1840int_3121sta_1425haste_998crit
neck=untainted_guardians_chain,id=103867
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,stats=1159int_1739sta_734hit_796mastery
shoulders=chronomancer_mantle,id=99153,gems=80int_160haste_80int_160haste_120int,enchant=200int_100crit,reforge=crit_mastery
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1386int_2319sta_1095haste_703crit
back=xingho_breath_of_yulon,id=102246,gems=80int_160haste_60int,enchant=lightweave_embroidery_3
# ilevel=600,quality=legendary,type=cloth,stats=1716int_2694sta_918crit_918haste_918mastery
chest=chronomancer_robes,id=99152,gems=80int_160haste_80int_160haste_80int_160haste_180int,enchant=80all,reforge=crit_haste
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1840int_3121sta_1328mastery_1164crit
wrists=avools_ancestral_bracers,id=103851,enchant=180int
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1159int_1739sta_784haste_753mastery
hands=chronomancer_gloves,id=99160,gems=80int_160haste_80int_160haste_120int,enchant=170haste,reforge=crit_mastery
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1386int_2319sta_965crit_915haste
waist=belt_of_ominous_trembles,id=103898,gems=160int_320hit_320haste_120int
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1386int_2319sta_1025hit_824mastery
legs=leggings_of_furious_flame,id=103921,gems=160haste_160hit_160haste_160hit_120int,enchant=285int_165crit
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1920int_3121sta_1328haste_1272mastery
feet=boneinlaid_sandals,id=103805,gems=80int_160haste_60hit,enchant=140mastery
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,type=cloth,stats=1466int_2319sta_998haste_973mastery
finger1=extinguished_ember_of_galakras,id=103823,enchant=160int
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,stats=1159int_1739sta_773hit_773haste
finger2=iyyokuks_hereditary_seal,id=103824,enchant=160int
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,stats=1159int_1739sta_715hit_807mastery
trinket1=purified_bindings_of_immerseus,id=102293
# ilevel=553,quality=epic
trinket2=kardris_toxic_totem,id=102300
# ilevel=553,quality=epic
main_hand=rikkals_bloody_scalpel,id=103973,weapon=dagger_1.8speed_3550min_6595max,gems=80int_160haste_60int,enchant=jade_spirit,reforge=crit_exp
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,stats=811int_1337sta_563hit_539crit_11913sp
off_hand=festering_primordial_globule,id=103919,gems=80int_160haste_60int,enchant=165int,reforge=hit_mastery
# ilevel=553,quality=epic,stats=1079int_1739sta_619hit_800haste

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw
Edited by Lhivera on 9/6/2013 7:10 PM PDT
100 Gnome Mage
8665
^Lhiv, wouldn't the crafted Tailoring Belt maybe be slightly better? It's got 2 red sockets & gives Hit/Haste.

The one you've chosen has a Red + Blue socket, gives Hit + Mastery, and you're gemming a pure Hit gem on it.

Edit -> Crafted Tailoring belt better till you get a Heroic SoO one, that is.
Edited by Breaktheice on 9/8/2013 4:42 AM PDT
100 Night Elf Mage
14850
It would've been nice if mastery was the most lucrative stat for frost going into 5.4, it would mean I'd be able to switch between arcane and frost conveniently without having to regem and reforge, as I did early in the tier for 5.3 when I was stacking haste for both.
Edited by Stardrake on 9/8/2013 5:14 AM PDT
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
^Lhiv, wouldn't the crafted Tailoring Belt maybe be slightly better? It's got 2 red sockets & gives Hit/Haste.

The one you've chosen has a Red + Blue socket, gives Hit + Mastery, and you're gemming a pure Hit gem on it.


Maybe a little -- I'm at the point where even switching one gem from int/haste to pure haste makes the value of haste drop below Mastery, so any further improvements from stat shifts should be very small.

The main reason I didn't use it, though, is that for some reason, the new tailored items aren't showing up in a regular cloth items search on wowhead. Filtering for a 553 cloth belt turns up only the four dropped belts (two with Spirit). Weird. I'll try it out and see if it does anything.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw
100 Gnome Mage
8665
^Lhiv, wouldn't the crafted Tailoring Belt maybe be slightly better? It's got 2 red sockets & gives Hit/Haste.

The one you've chosen has a Red + Blue socket, gives Hit + Mastery, and you're gemming a pure Hit gem on it.


Maybe a little -- I'm at the point where even switching one gem from int/haste to pure haste makes the value of haste drop below Mastery, so any further improvements from stat shifts should be very small.

The main reason I didn't use it, though, is that for some reason, the new tailored items aren't showing up in a regular cloth items search on wowhead. Filtering for a 553 cloth belt turns up only the four dropped belts (two with Spirit). Weird. I'll try it out and see if it does anything.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw

IIRC, the new crafting patterns on 5.4 are BoP, not BoE. So a Tailor would be able to make the item for him/her self, but mages who aren't Tailors wouldn't be able to use it.

I'm not sure though.
100 Troll Mage
20525
Are you talking about the T16N profiles? If so, they're not heavily optimized, but there probably isn't more than another 1-2% to squeeze out of them.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium

“I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.”
– George Bernard Shaw


I'm actually still looking at T15, myself in particular. I'm trying to be sure of Fire's stat weights since everyone is saying that Mastery will be crap, however the sims that I ran disagreed.
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
I would be inclined to agree with the sims. I think people are too quick to view a change in the context of a single stat. Yeah, the Combustion change reduces the value of Ignite, and Mastery directly affects the value of Ignite, so its value goes down. But Crit, Haste and Int all directly feed into the value of Ignite as well. The reduction hits them all, and not so differently that I would expect a radical shift in their relative values.
100 Blood Elf Mage
16015

IIRC, the new crafting patterns on 5.4 are BoP, not BoE. So a Tailor would be able to make the item for him/her self, but mages who aren't Tailors wouldn't be able to use it.

I'm not sure though.


It's BOE, they want crafters to be making some gold, but it's 21 days of cooldowns, assuming that they learned it from the discovery.

Here's the link to the recipe in the wowhead ptr.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/spell=142964
Edited by Bloodkorican on 9/9/2013 12:54 PM PDT
90 Worgen Mage
11190
back on topic: it still stands as Haste past GCD > Mastery > Crit (as low as possible)

BiS list for 5.4 http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1340467-Frost-Akraen-s-Tier-16-BiS
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