The Future of Healing: A Discussion

90 Human Priest
13720
The Matter Swap demons came for me this week, Tsilyi.


/shudder

e: all this talk of pw:s reminds me that i'd much rather be pw:s blanketing than atonement spamming. at least i have to pick a target. i'd argue that it's also far more engaging than spirit shell... i'd be ok if say... weakened soul duration was longer and so we had to pick and choose when we blanketed, but i still think disc in every sense is very boring. i don't find holy that much more interesting and it's what is leading me away from this class in general.
Edited by Tsilyi on 9/4/2013 8:03 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
09/04/2013 08:00 AMPosted by Naér
What the hell does Druids spamming Rejuv have to do with any of that?


Well your main justification for the PW: Shield /absorbs being to over-powered/over used was:

50% of my healing last night on H DA was Power Word: Shield. I did 17.9 million healing with that one spell.


I was just curious if it's more of a multiple classes getting narrowed into very limited pieces of their tool kit issue over an absorb issue.

I don't think absorbs themselves are the issue either, but rather this issue that when we stop using a spell as often, they find a way to narrow us into it. Then again there was some asinine quote from GC I'd have to hunt down about how PW: S blanketing is dynamic and interesting.


I didn't say it was overused. Please re-read my post, and the post I was replying to. Skoot said that she/he doesn't think that we'll go back to bubble spam if they further nerf or remove Spirit Shell. I was pointing out that we already can bubble spam, and it's very effective. I made no judgement in that post as to whether or not it's over powered. I simply said we're already able to do so now, and there's nothing to prevent us from becoming even more dependent on PW: Shield should they remove SS.

09/04/2013 08:01 AMPosted by Tsilyi
The Matter Swap demons came for me this week, Tsilyi.


/shudder

e: all this talk of pw:s reminds me that i'd much rather be pw:s blanketing than atonement spamming. at least i have to pick a target. i'd argue that it's also far more engaging than spirit shell... i'd be ok if say... weakened soul duration was longer and so we had to pick and choose when we blanketed, but i still think disc in every sense is very boring. i don't find holy that much more interesting and it's what is leading me away from this class in general.


...are you going to become a Priest Traitor, Tsilyi?
Edited by Tiriel on 9/4/2013 8:06 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
13720
we'd certainly become more dependent on it for situations in which we use SS... and i expect this to be the case in 5.4 to supplement the nerf to SS self-buff duration. personally, i've found the best route for me outside of SS is to almost entirely atonement spam, using my lvl 90 talents to maintain DA on the raid, especially when it's stacked. wtb more crit. maybe next patch with AA up i can inch closer to over 40%... ZZZZzzzz

...are you going to become a Priest Traitor, Tsilyi?


if the class stays as boring and uninspired as it is, and the other classes are competitive, probably. but not until next expansion... even then, we'll see what they do with the class. i hate being bored. ask my fellow healers how much i complain over vent about boring healing situations. they probably hate me.
Edited by Tsilyi on 9/4/2013 8:10 AM PDT
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90 Troll Priest
6525
I didn't say it was overused. Please re-read my post, and the post I was replying to. Skoot said that she/he doesn't think that we'll go back to bubble spam if they further nerf or remove Spirit Shell. I was pointing out that we already can bubble spam, and it's very effective. I made no judgement in that post as to whether or not it's over powered. I simply said we're already able to do so now, and there's nothing to prevent us from becoming even more dependent on PW: Shield should they remove SS.


Sorry I implied something, I'm not attacking you... holy defensive batman! Just trying to get out a bit more of your position on the matter.

and i expect this to be the case in 5.4 to supplement the nerf to SS self-buff duration. personally, i've found the best route for me outside of SS is to almost entirely atonement spam,


This definitely seems more of a nerf to 25 m than 10 m, which really doesn't get at where disc SS was too strong. I'll still easily be able to get 3 casts in, and leading in with BT + PI (or troll racial) I'll be able to get 4 which basically caps SS in 10m. Which seems fair enough, but pushing haste just to get 5 casts without movement/perfect situation is going to be rough on 25m discs. PW: Shield blanketing that last group is going to be a must pretty much.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
This definitely seems more of a nerf to 25 m than 10 m, which really doesn't get at where disc SS was too strong. I'll still easily be able to get 3 casts in, and leading in with BT + PI (or troll racial) I'll be able to get 4 which basically caps SS in 10m. Which seems fair enough, but pushing haste just to get 5 casts without movement/perfect situation is going to be rough on 25m discs. PW: Shield blanketing that last group is going to be a must pretty much.


That was brought up with GC, who said something along the lines that they feel that Disc in 10 mans isn't overpowered, and in 25 mans was where they wanted to nerf it.
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90 Troll Priest
6525
That was brought up with GC, who said something along the lines that they feel that Disc in 10 mans isn't overpowered, and in 25 mans was where they wanted to nerf it.


/headdesk
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
09/04/2013 08:19 AMPosted by Naér
That was brought up with GC, who said something along the lines that they feel that Disc in 10 mans isn't overpowered, and in 25 mans was where they wanted to nerf it.


/headdesk


Yeah, that was about my response. I'm figuring that should I ever get the 4pc set bonus, I'll probably use it for the Mastery/Haste boost to bubble spam, since standing still is a real issue on many of the fights.
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100 Tauren Priest
20170
Yeah, that was about my response. I'm figuring that should I ever get the 4pc set bonus, I'll probably use it for the Mastery/Haste boost to bubble spam, since standing still is a real issue on many of the fights.


Your not allowed to go disc, your the holy priest that I wish I could be in my ten man group but the blizzard overlords decided that we need a absorb healer to make raiding smoother.

Also to counter partsharks view I REALLY don't want that level of coordination in healing. Some coordination is absolutely fine and coordination is in okay this healer will watch the melee this healer will watch this tank this healer will watch this group ect. is fine and needed because we don't really have that now at least in ten man, but if we have to coordinate to the point of when to cast a POH can you imagine the mumble/vent clutter? Raid leaders are going to mute their healers just to get us to shut up.

And yes I agree that the levels of Wrath PWS spamming are more engaging than the atonement spamming we do now. And that's saying something.

I could be bias though because I have never liked atonement.
Edited by Rapsidy on 9/4/2013 9:17 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
50% of my healing last night on H DA was Power Word: Shield. I did 17.9 million healing with that one spell. I did the math on my number of casts. I was casting a shield every 3.4 seconds. And no, I wasn't running OOM. So are you absolutely sure that would be the case?

No. I do think that's largely determined by fight mechanics though. I haven't done H DA, but I'm reasonably sure Interrupting Jolt is a pretty big deal and happens more often than Spirit Shell comes off CD (and it favors instants anyway) and Matter Swap is very predictable in terms of damage dealt. It's also reliant on your other healers, PW:S spam is less HPS than PoH spam (napkin math says PoH does around 20-25% more HPS before overheal), the difference being PW:S won't overheal and increases each target's EH more reliably than DA in the event of burst damage.

If SS going away did take us back to Wrath era shield spam, I'd be okay with changes to fix that as well. I'm still not entirely convinced it's a 'looming threat.'

09/04/2013 08:01 AMPosted by Tsilyi
The Matter Swap demons came for me this week, Tsilyi.


/shudder

e: all this talk of pw:s reminds me that i'd much rather be pw:s blanketing than atonement spamming. at least i have to pick a target. i'd argue that it's also far more engaging than spirit shell... i'd be ok if say... weakened soul duration was longer and so we had to pick and choose when we blanketed, but i still think disc in every sense is very boring. i don't find holy that much more interesting and it's what is leading me away from this class in general.

Kinda my thoughts on the matter too. I feel like Atonement has made me a worse healer than I used to be and makes me look a lot better on the meters than I should given how little effort I'm putting in.

Though, as far as imaginary PW:S changes are concerned, I think I'd prefer a charge system like Roll. I think that'd be pretty neat. Make certain abilities generate charges or something.

P.S. I don't want this to be a Disc thread, it's just that Disc happens to be both the poster child and one of the causes of the state of healing as it is today.

P.P.S. He. I am he.
Edited by Skootalloo on 9/4/2013 9:26 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Shaman
12725
So it took a while but I read through this thread and it's been a pretty good discussion so kudos fellow healers. I'll keep my opinion short and sweet.

I liked triage but more importantly I liked having to watch my mana. Mana gets out of hand every expansion.

Smart and AoE heals are too efficient and with the little concern for mana its better for me to fire them without care then advance plan them. Imagine if Healing Rain had a real cooldown and raid damage was less consistent. I think that would be a better situation than the current one.

We are swimming in cooldowns, even worse in 25s. Every single high damage phase is just a cycle of cooldowns I have to manage for our guild. I understand that it makes fights more exciting to see high raid damage beat the raid very quickly but it makes for less engaging gameplay as a healer when I'm just coordinating a string of cooldowns. A big reason this is a problem is because DPS and Tanks have all these cooldowns. It's silly I find my Moonkin's Tranq to be more reliable and helpful than my Resto Druids for pulling us out of the fire. Scaling back non healer CDs and letting healers muscle through raid damage with smart spell selection would do wonders for the healing game.

I have little issues with absorbs, it's when they are tied to smart mechanics. I think absorbs lasting longer but only blocking a certain percentage of the damage would kill the arms race we have to snipe each other.

Overall, I still find healing fun and to be the most challenging of the roles the game provides though. Sure, Healing Rain, HST, and HTT might be my top heals, but the 5-7 Healing Surges I cast are the ones that save lives and secure us kills. Blizzard needs to find a way to reel back on smart heals, make mana matter for the entire expansion pack, adjust the abundance of free AoE healing and scale back on the cooldowns.

But as always it's easier to give people things than to take them away. Would healers and players stay with the game if they drastically reduced CDs, mana, and smart heals? Who knows...
Edited by Blackerbaron on 9/4/2013 10:36 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
7315
I think absorbs lasting longer but only blocking a certain percentage of the damage would kill the arms race we have to snipe each other.


This would likely do WONDERS for the whole "disc can completely negate a mechanic" issue I see people whine about. Maybe keeping one or two absorbs as they are now as more "oh ****" tools and changing the majority of them to a damage reduction instead of prevention tool could be very interesting. Would let them play nicer with hots too.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
09/04/2013 10:58 AMPosted by Tersia
I think absorbs lasting longer but only blocking a certain percentage of the damage would kill the arms race we have to snipe each other.


This would likely do WONDERS for the whole "disc can completely negate a mechanic" issue I see people whine about. Maybe keeping one or two absorbs as they are now as more "oh ****" tools and changing the majority of them to a damage reduction instead of prevention tool could be very interesting. Would let them play nicer with hots too.


I hope you understand that if that were to happen, Disc would likely have to receive a sizable pure throughput increase to compensate. Unlike other healers, Disc hits a throughput cap very quickly once you get into heavier damage. If you change the way bubbles work, they'll need to be compensated with a raw throughput increase. Which I suspect would only increase the complaints.
Edited by Tiriel on 9/4/2013 11:52 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
13625
09/04/2013 10:34 AMPosted by Blackerbaron
Overall, I still find healing fun and to be the most challenging of the roles the game provides though. Sure, Healing Rain, HST, and HTT might be my top heals, but the 5-7 Healing Surges I cast are the ones that save lives and secure us kills.


I feel the same way. With my 4 pc bonus and the 13k hbp Rejuvenation does a sick percentage of my healing (45-60% depending on the encounter). But it is the timely Regrowth that saves the tank or wayward dps and saves a wipe.

The funny thing is now that I have my 4 pc and the high hbp, I am casting fewer Rejuvs. The combination of those 2 things just make the spell do a broken amount of healing per cast, especially a SotF hasted Rejuv.

Forgot who was wondering, but PW Shield is a much less expensive spell to cast then Rejuvenation.

Rejuvenation: 14.5% base mana
PW: Shield: 6.1% base mana

When I Rejuv blanket my 10 man raid my mana bar frigg'n disappears, therefor I hardly ever do. I am pretty much broken until Innervate comes of CD.

*Note: I hate Horridon, still no HLG....Elemental Shammy got it coining for OS last night.../Head slam on desk.

When I do that on my much lower geared disc priest alt with PW:Shield; I notice it but I can recover pretty quickly.
Edited by Plantman on 9/4/2013 1:24 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Priest
11895
Forgot who was wondering, but PW Shield is a much less expensive spell to cast then Rejuvenation.

Rejuvenation: 14.5% base mana
PW: Shield: 6.1% base mana

Actually, Druids have a lower base mana than Priests. Druids have 60k base mana while Priests have 300k. So Rejuv costs 8700 mana to PW:S's 18300 (or 13725 as Disc).
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90 Pandaren Shaman
7315
I hope you understand that if that were to happen, Disc would likely have to receive a sizable pure throughput increase to compensate. Unlike other healers, Disc hits a throughput cap very quickly once you get into heavier damage. If you change the way bubbles work, they'll need to be compensated with a raw throughput increase. Which I suspect would only increase the complaints.


Oh I agree! Any large change like that would mean huge retuning, and I would expect nothing less than larger direct healing to compensate the change.
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91 Night Elf Druid
9335
I think there's a pretty healthy mixture of smart+non smart heals. Enough AE smart healing to make the encounter ridiculously intense, and enough varied mechanics to still make single target matter.

Healing has come a long way. My personal playstyle favored the more spammy/quick reaction type of healing, but Cataclysm certainly introduced some cool concepts and I think was a healthy change more geared towards mana management. In MoP they seem to have mixed both worlds together (or at least scaling and a lack of item squish has just naturaly done that).
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