The Future of Healing: A Discussion

90 Pandaren Priest
14930
One thing that annoys me greatly is the thing that always gets cut for the sake of progression is the healer. I know they don't want us stacking healers and feel free to find a way to punish us when there's to many for an encounter but I know it gets annoying for our resto shaman every week to have to switch from resto to ele maybe 2 or 3 times a night and reforge or gem gear each time because some fights need 2 heals some fights need 3. He does he because it helps the guild and he loves us dearly and we compensate him for it but if he had his choice he would heal full time.


The issue is actually that they tune fights to a specific ilvl of gear, and expect everyone to have that level of gear when they reach the encounter. But any guild that progresses faster than a snail is probably going to be without that level of gear when they first roll through (unless they're an overgeared group from the previous content, and even then they will eventually hit a fight where they are undergeared vs. the intended ilvl). In those situations, the easiest way to get past a boss that has a high DPS check when you just don't have the gear to do it is to drop healers to make room for more DPS.
Edited by Tiriel on 8/31/2013 7:05 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Priest
20790
Fine then give me more valithria dreamwalker type fights and say screw the dps :D or just make more healer intensive fights so the need to drop a healer is fewer unless your the blood legion method type guild and your going to do it anyways.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Or rather, they did initially during testing, but it was so boring that people complained. So they ramped up everything.


That is exactly right. I mean, I'm glad I am not able to go make a sandwich while somebody else has been assigned to slowly heal the raid up. But given they ramped up the damage patterns, I'd like to see a few more fast cast heals too.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
Fine then give me more valithria dreamwalker type fights and say screw the dps :D or just make more healer intensive fights so the need to drop a healer is fewer unless your the blood legion method type guild and your going to do it anyways.


D:

No please. I have an astigmatism and have depth perception problems. That fight was hell! xD I actually really don't like "heal the boss to full" fights (like what we're going to have on Nourshen, btw) because it's a pain to target them and then I have to keep heals on my bars, etc.

But I can sort of understand what you're saying. Honestly, we didn't drop down below 5 healers once this tier.
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The issue I get from this is that they've balanced 25s right, but they can't seem to balance 10s right. Seems to me a good time to, oh idk, GET RID OF 10S!

I kid I kid. Kinda.

The Stampede bug was actually legit. It was because of all the pets popping up on the combat log and heals hitting them, or trying to assign dmg to them or some mess. The healing issue has been in for the same amount of time, I believe. So I thinks its a case of finding one problem and not noticing the other.

Anyway, I understand that they didn't tune fights to the triage model as they had planned, but they didn't change healers until we'd already figured out how to succeed anyway, except disc. Poor discs were in a pretty sad shape for awhile there. That, however is the past and we don't want to go backwards because our toolkits are far more advanced then they were, so it would likely be a disaster.

And while I do like fights like Dreamwalker and Tsulong, I find them gimmicky and could probably only stand one of those per xpac.

So one of the things I have a love/hate with is Neverwinter, where you heal by being near someone. It is definitely a different playstyle and has interesting ramifications, but I'm not sure that would work well in Warcraft.

Another idea is more utilization of the battlefield. Alysrazor had a good mechanic with the giant meatballs of doom that you hid behind to avoid instant death. Maybe there could be encounters that have usable environments. Fighting in a wooden area? Maybe you could dps down a tree to avoid a huge AE dmg spike. You could ignore that and heal through it, but there's the option there. Maybe there's a couple lumberjacks or cutters that you can heal and as you heal them they cut the tree down, preventing huge raid dmg.

Maybe you're fighting in a gated entry way like org and there's a lever or chain that only healers can interact with, that you have to take turns pulling on (provides a 30 sec debuff) to unleash a boiling vat of hot tar on the boss. Which a fire spell or a torch that a healer could throw would set the boss on fire doing massive amounts of dmg.

Maybe adding platforming options to fights where healers can interact with unique healing systems. Maybe you are fighting a boss and there's platforms around him that healers can interact with to gain access to a healing robot that increases all healing done while active and generates massive aggro. Tanks would then have to take turns taunting the boss off the robot to keep it alive (heals would not work on it).

These are healing specific possibilities:

Maybe add longer cooldowns on AE/Smart spells.
Possibly add longer debuffs for absorbs.
Maybe the devs could make all healers use the same mana regeneration systems. (Which runs the risk of homogenization)
Maybe healers could burn their spirit to increase healing, reducing their spirit the rest of the fight.

What do you guys have?
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100 Tauren Priest
20790
But I can sort of understand what you're saying. Honestly, we didn't drop down below 5 healers once this tier.


Fair enough, but the amount of fights that switch from 2 to 3 healers at least for heroic ten man is for this tier at least a lot more adjustable and there's a lot less wriggle room in that regard.

The issue I get from this is that they've balanced 25s right, but they can't seem to balance 10s right. Seems to me a good time to, oh idk, GET RID OF 10S!


15 MAN RAIDS?!?!

Partshark I think you have some interesting ideas but I think they are...to niche? Is that the word? There is a lot a healer already has to do in a fight, adding more to that while may be fun for many of the posters in this thread, may be extremely overwhelming for new healers trying to first just learn how to play their class and then be told they have to do all these things at the right time and they must be the ones to do it or their raid suffers and or wipes. Probably the focus should be more on the design of the classes themselves rather than the bosses right now.

I do think the idea of "burning" spirit could make for some interesting play like if your oom but big damage is coming out do you energize your spirit to help your raid and get mana back to get thru this part but suffer from reduced regen for the rest of the fight or do you trust that your other healers can pull you thru this tough spot?

I remember when our hunter broke down into tears on 25 man heroic lich king because he couldn't master the dispel mechanic on the big adds plus all the other things we had to do. (Don't ask why the job was easy as !@#$ and me and the other hunter had no issues but I think he had other rl issues stressing him)
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
08/31/2013 08:24 PMPosted by Rapsidy
our hunter broke down into tears on 25 man heroic lich king because he couldn't master the dispel mechanic on the big adds


Wat? Hunter?
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100 Tauren Priest
20790
Tranq shotting the big shambling horror thingys? When they enraged
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
Oh . I think our tanks just dealt with it, because we didn't have a dispel like that. Although it has been a while. Anyway, sorry for the OT.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
08/31/2013 07:39 PMPosted by Taymage
Or rather, they did initially during testing, but it was so boring that people complained. So they ramped up everything.


That is exactly right. I mean, I'm glad I am not able to go make a sandwich while somebody else has been assigned to slowly heal the raid up. But given they ramped up the damage patterns, I'd like to see a few more fast cast heals too.


I'd like to see more variation in how fights are healed. Change up damage patterns, change up healing patterns.

But, like someone said earlier, it's hard—if not impossible—to push complexity far enough to appease people like me while making the spec/class accessible to people who don't have the time/ability/what-have-you to work with....

Oh my god...I want an LFR/Normal/Hardmode version of specs.

Tiriel

They just converted Healing Rain, Sanctuary, and Spinning Crane Kick from non-smart heals to smart heals for that very reason.


You mean they converted heals that had no cap and would tick away on anyone and everyone regardless of need to smart heals?

And, as others have said, not responded to subsequent complaints about the lag persisting?

I'm not saying that doesn't exist. I'm saying that it's not necessary. Class/spec stacking is only necessary for people on the bleeding edge of progression. And while does make things a bit more hairy to not have, say, a Disc Priest in your raid, that doesn't mean you can't down the content. Raids without Disc Priests have downed all of the content.


Trade chat bickering doesn't need to exist either, but it does and it always will.

People like feeling powerful. They like helping their raid. It's one reason why players reroll (and not just bleeding edgers).

Are you honestly trying to argue against in-class balance because you don't need one spec to be as good as another to down bosses? Because this isn't a priestcentric issue.

I think you're reading tone into my words. I'm not trying to be condescending at all. Maybe you should give me the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that I'm being condescending just because I'm disagreeing with you.


Then a bit of advice: when you repeat yourself and emphasize those repetitions, as though it might escape me the first time, it comes across as condescending.

You've also been assuming a lot on my part, or doing a heck of a lot of misreading, rather than actually responding to what I'm saying.

I like raid healing. It's why I joined a 25 man. I enjoy the playstyle. *shrug* There are a few fights I stance dance in - Council, Lei Shen, and Ra-den, for example - but for the most part I'm quite happy to chill in Sanctuary.


So do many/most people who play RShaman, RDruids, Mistweavers...but they don't lose a chunk of power and a few spells for 30 seconds when they decide the tank needs some dedicated attention for the next 10 seconds. :)

I wouldn't be playing this game if I didn't still enjoy healing as a priest. Enjoying something doesn't necessitate a lack of criticism for its drawbacks or shortcomings.
Edited by Elethia on 8/31/2013 9:21 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Priest
20790
I'd like to see more variation in how fights are healed. Change up damage patterns, change up healing patterns.


Dear god I read that and in my mind I just gagged thinking of what would happen if blizzard threw a fight in siege that disabled all our hots and aoe heals and smart heals and only let us use single target heals. CAN YOU IMAGINE? I couldn't without gagging. That's how sad it is right now.
Edited by Rapsidy on 8/31/2013 9:14 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
....I....kind of want to see that now.
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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
You mean they converted heals that had no cap and would tick away on anyone and everyone regardless of need to smart heals?

And, as others have said, not responded to subsequent complaints about the lag persisting?


They converted non-smart heals into smart heals, yes. I don't see how your response in any way refutes what I said.

Trade chat bickering doesn't need to exist either, but it does and it always will.


Does Blizzard need to structure the entire game around Trade Chat bickering? o_O

People like feeling powerful. They like helping their raid. It's one reason why players reroll (and not just bleeding edgers).


Of course they do. But just because every single spec isn't sitting on top in every single fight doesn't mean you're actively dicking your raid over by playing a spec that's lower on the totem pole. With the exception of Shaman, for the bulk of the expansion pretty much every spec has been functioning just fine. Shaman haven't been there, but that's a paragraphs-long discussion that I'm sure no one wants to get into here.

Are you honestly trying to argue against in-class balance because you don't need one spec to be as good as another to down bosses? Because this isn't a priestcentric issue.


Nope. I'm saying that the excuse, "Well, my guild asked me to change my spec, and I don't want to!" is spurious. In a hardcore guild, you might be asked to do that - that's part and parcel of being in a hardcore guild. I didn't want to play Disc for Heroic Council, but I did because my Raid Leader told me to. I didn't particularly want to play Holy for Tsulong in my 10 man, but I did it because I felt it was more effective, but I could have played either spec because my guild at the time was nowhere near hardcore.

Leaving aside the question of Shaman (because I believe it will be a big issue in the next patch), most of the other healers haven't been actively sat for anything because another spec was just plain better. At least not in 25 man content. You could argue that because Healing Priests don't have an immunity, they were sat on Heroic Lei Shen (remember that Method didn't bring a single one to their first kill), and therefore they need buffs so they can compete with the other classes in a situation like that. But that's one fight out of 13. As long as the bulk of the fights are favorable to bringing the classes, I don't really think it's necessarily unbalanced.

Then a bit of advice: when you repeat yourself and emphasize those repetitions, as though it might escape me the first time, it comes across as condescending.


I could hand you the very same advice, because a lot of what you've said and the way you've emphasized it could be interpreted as being condescending from my point of view, as well. But I won't, because I am trying to believe that you're not like that.

You've also been assuming a lot on my part, or doing a heck of a lot of misreading, rather than actually responding to what I'm saying.


As have you.

So do many/most people who play RShaman, RDruids, Mistweavers...but they don't lose a chunk of power and a few spells for 30 seconds when they decide the tank needs some dedicated attention for the next 10 seconds. :)


I'm not addressing RShaman in this thread, because I think it would be horribly insulting to the entire class to behave like somehow Holy Priests have it worse than Shaman do at the moment. But as for RDruids, if they want to switch to tank healing, that requires some build-up time unless they've been actively monitoring the tank the entire time (altho of course they should have Lifebloom on them). I don't think anyone would want to make the claim that Mistweavers are anywhere near as effective Tank Healers as Holy Priests can be in Serenity.

I agree that 30 seconds is too long, but I don't necessarily agree that having a trade-off is bad. You're arguing you want the playstyle to be more engaging, but it seems like what you want is for the trade-off to be gone. Wouldn't that be less engaging?

I wouldn't be playing this game if I didn't still enjoy healing as a priest. Enjoying something doesn't necessitate a lack of criticism for its drawbacks or shortcomings.


I guess my definition of criticism and yours are different.
Edited by Tiriel on 8/31/2013 9:40 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Monk
8805
You mean they converted heals that had no cap and would tick away on anyone and everyone regardless of need to smart heals?

And, as others have said, not responded to subsequent complaints about the lag persisting?


Yes, on the PTR, they did. Hopefully it was experimental and is reverted. >.>

The issue I get from this is that they've balanced 25s right, but they can't seem to balance 10s right. Seems to me a good time to, oh idk, GET RID OF 10S!


Personally I feel like 10s are kinda balanced. Lower the cap on Spirit Shell and they're fine. 25s is where you get 10 different smart heals all over the raid.

It's my opinion that they don't have scaling done well, particularly with Spirit. Tanks are having the same issue -- T14 saw the tanks almost perfectly balanced, and then a few of them just scaled out of control. Scaling exacerbates the difference in how a tank's mitigation works, and it exacerbates the strengths of each healer's toolkit.
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100 Tauren Priest
20790
Alright for the sake of a good thread that is giving for the most part positive feedback all around, Elethia and Tiriel can we just agree to disagree and drop the repostings of each other and focus more on the big picture?

I respect both of your input as do a lot of people here I'm sure and I think it would be better spent focused on the thread topic. Especially since you guys are both 13/13 heroic raiders and can provide detail that someone like me maybe cannot.

Bickering doesn't help though so /smite to both of you.

At rainbodash I think the lmg and the soon to be legendary cloaks are more of the culprits there than anything and I stated very early on that blizzard is going to have a hell of a time balancing legendarys for all but that's another thread topic so not much we can do about it at this point.
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90 Pandaren Priest
8345
healer forum threads are always doomed to being crap because of people being catty as hell
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
They converted non-smart heals into smart heals, yes. I don't see how your response in any way refutes what I said.


Ground heals have always been in their own class. Comparing them to other AE heals is silly.

Does Blizzard need to structure the entire game around Trade Chat bickering? o_O


Poor example, fine, but you can't ignore the validity of what I'm saying.

The problem exists and it affects how the game is played by many people. Saying it's not necessary won't get rid of the problem, and is a poor excuse to not fix a balance issue.

08/31/2013 09:40 PMPosted by Tiriel
With the exception of Shaman, for the bulk of the expansion pretty much every spec has been functioning just fine.


My guild is hardly bleeding edge, but all of our heals can attest to the fact that we've run Disc heavy during our progression specifically because it's better than Holy for almost every fight this expansion. I've experienced the same at lower progression as well.

It's problematic for every healer when their class is on the low end of the spectrum. It's doubly so for Priests because we do have another spec, and people expect us to be totally fine with switching to one when the other just isn't doing the trick.

As I've said multiple times, I personally am okay because I like both specs (and would, frankly, prefer to go Holy far more than I do), but I fully understand that many choose Disc or Holy just as they would choose between a Holy Paladin and a Resto Druid.

Nope. I'm saying that the excuse, "Well, my guild asked me to change my spec, and I don't want to!" is spurious.


See above.

No, it's not deceitful in any way. Some people absolutely despise Disc/Holy. We've seen countless threads over the years where someone is frustrated because they're being benched/replaced, denied guild entry, etc, because of the disparity (perceived or otherwise) between the two specs.

I'm sorry you're focusing only on your experience with your last and current guilds, but I'm speaking from a much wider perspective. I'm speaking from my own experiences, and the experiences of those who have shared their frustrations, etc, on the forums.

I agree that 30 seconds is too long, but I don't necessarily agree that having a trade-off is bad. You're arguing you want the playstyle to be more engaging, but it seems like what you want is for the trade-off to be gone. Wouldn't that be less engaging?


There's almost nothing engaging about the current system beyond "hmm, is it going to suck within 30 seconds if I switch Chakras now?".

Put Chakra on a shorter cooldown, have it on the GCD to prevent instant switch macros, and give us a reason to do some real Chakra Weaving.

I guess my definition of criticism and yours are different.


I guess so? Mine involves challenging stagnation, suggesting improvements, and pushing for more rewarding gameplay for healers.

The rest, frankly, isn't relevant to this thread and is clearly heading toward a conversation that should be held in private.
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100 Night Elf Priest
13930
Sorry Rap, but I've been trying to keep my points both on topic and reflective of both healing as an umbrella and priests as a subset of that umbrella.
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100 Blood Elf Mage
18255
I like both of you a lot, and I think you both may be reading too much animosity into each other posts. Frankly, I think you may be talking past each other.

[in before Kaels points and laughs at Tay, of all people, daring to comment upon the posting etiquette of other folks]
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100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
I like both of you a lot, and I think you both may be reading too much animosity into each other posts. Frankly, I think you may be talking past each other.

[in before Kaels points and laughs at Tay, of all people, daring to comment upon the posting etiquette of other folks]

roflol

Weirdly enough, he's right, though.
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