Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide 4.1

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85 Tauren Druid
2740
Question:

If and when Shooting Stars procs during either of the various Eclipse phases, should I throw down the instant-cast Starfire, or continue casting SS/Wrath and ignore SF?
90 Night Elf Druid
6925
Question:

If and when Shooting Stars procs during either of the various Eclipse phases, should I throw down the instant-cast Starfire, or continue casting SS/Wrath and ignore SF?


Let your current cast finish, then cast Starsurge immediately.

If you're close enough to Lunar (within 2-3 casts) then wait until you reach Lunar Eclipse before casting Starsurge.
90 Night Elf Druid
6925
02/10/2011 8:11 PMPosted by Taynis
What should I be buying with my Valor Points first?


I do believe that T11 is your priority. I spent my first bunch of VP on a Relic though as it was the bigger upgrade for my character who was sporting a terrible one :P
90 Worgen Druid
10200
Realized it was rude of me to not thank Eluial and Calculated for comprising guides I refer to a lot. :) Thank you both, and thank you to everyone that participates in the thread.

You're very welcome! Just glad that people find it useful.

02/10/2011 7:58 PMPosted by Ikagawa
If you're close enough to Lunar (within 2-3 casts) then wait until you reach Lunar Eclipse before casting Starsurge.

2-3 casts?! Not at all. One cast, MAYBE (though I'm still being stubborn about recommending that). 2-3 is rather excessive. That's a lot of proc-age that you can be missing. 3 casts would be 4.5ish seconds, a little less with higher haste. Long time.

edit: that's at least 2 ticks per dot, so at least 4 chances for SS to proc.
Edited by Eluial on 2/10/2011 8:26 PM PST
85 Troll Druid
6705
once you get 4 pc T11, feel free to delay that Shooting Stars proc or Starsurge cooldown into next Eclipse. Guarantee crit Starsurge for 80+k is better than lukewarm 20k-30k non-Eclipsed crit/hit and worth the delay. Prior to 4pc, I agree don't delay more than a cast or so.
Edited by Calculatéd on 2/10/2011 9:10 PM PST
85 Worgen Druid
9545
once you get 4 pc T11, feel free to delay that Shooting Stars proc or Starsurge cooldown into next Eclipse. Guarantee crit Starsurge for 80+k is better than lukewarm 20k-30k non-Eclipsed crit/hit and worth the delay. Prior to 4pc, I agree don't delay more than a cast or so.


Sorry Calculated but I stopped believing you when you were confused about why going from 49% to 50% eclipse buff was only a .65% buff to sunfire. ;)
85 Troll Druid
6705
You talking about mastery breakpoints? i wasn't the only one confused about whether they existed or not. Anywho, I stand by delaying Starsurge, about glyphing Starfire with 4 pc T11, and a host of other things I've said before others came around. I don't always execute perfectly but my strategy and plan is usually sound.

EDIT: on the delay Starsurge thing, if you know anything about me, you know I spend a ton of time on target dummies putting other folks math to the test. On the whole, over large sample sizes, I tend to get fewer Starsurge in over the same time frame by delaying but I also do more overall damage with Starsurge. Everything else is constant. DPS goes up. I profit.

This is only with 4 pc and only because of a near-guaranteed crit on the delay plus Mastery buff plus great Starsurge scaling. This beats casting a non-eclipsed Starsurge with low crit chance across the board even if you lose a proc or delay the cooldown. Try it is all I can say . . .
Edited by Calculatéd on 2/10/2011 10:35 PM PST
85 Worgen Druid
9545
You talking about mastery breakpoints? i wasn't the only one confused about whether they existed or not.


No about what the increase should have been, not about the mastery breakpoint itself.

But I'm mostly just messing with you. :)

Anywho, I stand by delaying Starsurge, about glyphing Starfire with 4 pc T11, and a host of other things I've said before others came around. I don't always execute perfectly but my strategy and plan is usually sound.


My problem with the Starfire glyph is that while it looks good on patchwerk/paper, I think fight mechanics don't support it:
1) it's really only good on single-target fights. I'd almost never use it on ones where I roll dots on multiple targets... and that's like every fight right now.
2) it offers no benefit in heroism, since your dots will easily avoid the 4t11 bonus and you can refresh them in each eclipse. Hero is used for a lot of burn phases, which means one of your glyphs isn't doing anything for a big portion of the only important phase of the fight.

Also I've been using the Starsurge glyph since they buffed Starfall so much (although I think they reverted that and I'll probably switch back to Wrath). With Starsurge glyphed I always feel like delaying it is a bad idea, I'd be more inclined to do so with a different glyph.
Edited by Randomsmo on 2/10/2011 10:26 PM PST
85 Troll Druid
6705
Doh I edited right above you. My problem with Starsurge glyph post-4 pc T11 is you can't reliably use it on cooldown (at least not without consuming 4 pc charges to Stars). I can't see it. As to Starfire glyph on all encounters. Only one I've seen so far I couldn't use it on to any good effect was Omnotron -- target switches are too quick. For that fight, I slotted in Wrath. Everything else, I've gotten very good use out of it for my money.

Also -- yes you got me -- I named myself Calculated because I have an analytical mind (as in a calculated decision), not because I have a mathematical one :)
Edited by Calculatéd on 2/10/2011 10:33 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
10200

Also -- yes you got me -- I named myself Calculated because I have an analytical mind (as in a calculated decision), not because I have a mathematical one :)


speaking of which...
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2065606882#5
85 Worgen Druid
9545
EDIT: on the delay Starsurge thing, if you know anything about me, you know I spend a ton of time on target dummies putting other folks math to the test. On the whole, over large sample sizes, I tend to get fewer Starsurge in over the same time frame by delaying but I also do more overall damage with Starsurge. Everything else is constant. DPS goes up. I profit.


Honestly I consider even hours and hours of target-dummy testing to be very weak in terms of proof - there are just too many variables and they are rarely accounted for properly. Unfortunately it's very difficult to model rotations like that in a tool like Simcraft, so I'm somewhat at a loss of better ways to get proof.

I can see a lot of potential issues with delaying Starsurge. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it's a fairly complicated question and it can't be answered that simply. Just a couple of examples to keep this from getting too long:

First, the advantage of delay is one of opportunity cost. Starsurge hits hard, but honestly not that much harder then a Starfire, and you're losing damage by doing more wraths/starfires this way. 4t11 only buffs 3 spells in Lunar, so the benefit of delaying to make one of those a starsurge instead of a starfire seems pretty small to me.

Second, Shooting Star procs. Delaying means you may miss a few, and you should also account for the fact that a Shooting Star proc during the 4t11 buff is very nice - you can get the crit benefit to an additional spell.

Overall I think it's likely better to delay for Solar then it is for Lunar - I may start doing that myself a bit. But I'm not sure you can confidently make a blanket statement and say it's better to delay.
85 Troll Druid
6705
Target dummy practice is not perfect but on large sample sizes it helps me start to break down or validate the assumptions / findings from the mathematical models. It clearly doesn't simulate encounters -- though I have done many rotation sequences where I try introduce random movement and the like. It's the best I can do at any rate and I use it as one additional evaluation tool.

As to Starsurge -- it hits a good bit harder than Wrath or Starfire on crits. Over 130 million damage in logs tonight (fairly large sample size), average Wrath crit 31,505; average Starfire crit 44,136; average Starsurge crit 73,098. I'm going to call that substantial and a good replacement use of a 4 pc proc.

I'm also aware that l lose some Shooting Stars procs - but the only ones I lose are non-Eclipsed Shooting Stars proc as I will always use a Shooting Stars proc within an Eclipse. Also, with 12 sec duration on Shooting Stars proc in 4.0.6, I don't necessarily lose the proc but only delay my use of it -- there is risk exposure yes but only loss if another proc hits before I use that one which happens but somewhat rarely in that time window.

A non-Eclipsed Starsurge doesn't hit very hard even when critting. The delay to me is worth it. My findings are it increases both Starsurge output and overall dps. I've made my decision on it -- as to others, I guess I can back down to a blanket statement of "it's worth a look" . . . but, honestly, I think if someone modeled it -- someone better at mathematical modeling than I :) -- it would probably support my conclusion.
Just got Gale of Shadows today and wondering whether it's worth keeping or if I should keep going for Witching Hourglass

(Other trinket is Anhuur's Hymnal for which I currently need for the hit)
85 Troll Druid
5850
i think solar beam comes in handy when faced against alot of the heroic dungeons and provides good support
85 Worgen Druid
9545
As to Starsurge -- it hits a good bit harder than Wrath or Starfire on crits. Over 130 million damage in logs tonight (fairly large sample size), average Wrath crit 31,505; average Starfire crit 44,136; average Starsurge crit 73,098. I'm going to call that substantial and a good replacement use of a 4 pc proc.


Those numbers are unfairly weighted because of your rotation - waiting for Eclipse means your Starsurge averages will be substantially higher. A more accurate representation might be maximums over a long period of time, but I don't think WoL tracks that.

You're also only looking at one side of the equation. The fact that Starsurge hits harder then Starfire isn't proof because there is an opportunity cost associated with that action (less Starsurge casts overall). You need to show that the benefit X is greater than the cost Y.

To use a rough analogy:
Q: A large business can increase sales by 10 million if they increase their marketing costs by 20%. Should they do it?
A: We have no idea - there's insufficient information available to answer that question. The fact that one number goes up doesn't mean you're actually ahead.
85 Troll Druid
6705
The two numbers that net it all out are:

1) overall Starsurge damage per time period
2) overall damage per time period.

In other words, set a timer at say 10 minutes an run your rotation with an instant cast methodology. Stop at 10 minutes precise. Then run your rotation again with a delay cast methodology for 10 minutes precise. Look at logs to see the stats for #1 and #2 above. Do this over multiple 10 minute iterations with both methodologies to increase sample size. Post results and theory from study.

That paragraph above is what I did. My findings are delayed Starsurge methodology is higher for both #1 and #2. Mathematical models on EJ so far seem to be confirming. Take it for what it's worth.
85 Worgen Druid
9545
In other words, set a timer at say 10 minutes an run your rotation with an instant cast methodology. Stop at 10 minutes precise. Then run your rotation again with a delay cast methodology for 10 minutes precise. Look at logs to see the stats for #1 and #2 above. Do this over multiple 10 minute iterations with both methodologies to increase sample size. Post results and theory from study.


As I said, test dummy results are (at the very, very best) still very weak in terms of proof. I feel like I just keep making lists, but:
1) Sample Size. If I run Simcraft and have it do 1,000 iterations of 6 minute fights, I still see large variations in dps. That's 100 hours of testing. I usually go to 10k (1,000 hours) to get consistent results. Even 10 hours on a test dummy isn't very significant compared to this.
2) Uncontrolled variables - if a mage runs up and hits the test dummy for 2 minutes near the end of a test and gives you a crit boost, do you throw out the results?
3) Human Error - how do you account for the fact that you will make inconsistent mistakes? What about the fact that your perception (including exact timers on cooldowns) may differ from attempt to attempt? As you go longer do you get tired and introduce additional error, and if so how do you correct for this?
4) Raid dps scaling - abilities scale differently with raid buffs and consumables. An unbuffed moonkin's damage profile will look very different when compared to a fully raid-buffed moonkin. This makes it very difficult to compare abilities.

If mathematical models show it I'd be much more inclined to believe those. Same with Simcraft if someone can get it to simulate a delay rotation like that.
85 Troll Druid
6705
Again, take it for what it's worth. We can argue about the scientific method ad infinitum.
90 Night Elf Druid
6925
02/11/2011 7:30 AMPosted by Calculatéd
ad infinitum


I feel like I should make a guild called that...
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