Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide 4.1

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90 Night Elf Druid
8785
i did like to point out another mandatory glyph is the wrath one.

while IS is on the target, wrath dmg is increase.

Hurricane is a nice addition as well as innervate for optional.

and personally i prefer icewalker still for boomkin.

80 Tauren Druid
7620
i did like to point out another mandatory glyph is the wrath one.

while IS is on the target, wrath dmg is increase.

Hurricane is a nice addition as well as innervate for optional.

and personally i prefer icewalker still for boomkin.


Except that Wrath isn't a mandatory glyph.
85 Worgen Druid
4235

and personally i prefer icewalker still for boomkin.

the trouble with icewalker is that although it does provide crit on top of hit, movement speed has been proven to be a bigger dps increase because as a caster it is most important to get to a place where you can stand and cast for longer and the faster you can get between one point and the next, the better for your dps. the movement increase outweighs the little extra crit. it's not terrible to use icewalker over tuskarr's but it is not optimal. don't worry, in cata we will have the lavawalker enchant which is +35 mastery/run speed

in addition, the wrath glyph is inferior to MF and IS because our dots do way more damage now and the MF glyph benefits both Sunfire and Moonfire.
Edited by Kyiris on 11/9/2010 2:43 PM PST
80 Tauren Druid
7620

and personally i prefer icewalker still for boomkin.


the trouble with icewalker is that although it does provide crit on top of hit, movement speed has been proven to be a bigger dps increase because as a caster it is most important to get to a place where you can stand and cast for longer and the faster you can get between one point and the next, the better for your dps. the movement increase outweighs the little extra crit. it's not terrible to use icewalker over tuskarr's but it is not optimal. don't worry, in cata we will have the lavawalker enchant which is +35 mastery/run speed


Yay, 35 mastery.. good thing mastery ... well.. sucks for moonkin.
Those numbers that were crunched for Tuskar's Vitality were before Lunar Showers. We can now provide high DPS numbers on the fly as well.
85 Worgen Druid
4235

Yay, 35 mastery.. good thing mastery ... well.. sucks for moonkin.
Those numbers that were crunched for Tuskar's Vitality were before Lunar Showers. We can now provide high DPS numbers on the fly as well.


mastery sucks less than stamina.

and imho regardless of whether tuskarr's numbers were crunched before lunar showers, i ask you this: do you do more damage while moving or while standing still? ;)
80 Tauren Druid
7620

Yay, 35 mastery.. good thing mastery ... well.. sucks for moonkin.
Those numbers that were crunched for Tuskar's Vitality were before Lunar Showers. We can now provide high DPS numbers on the fly as well.

mastery sucks less than stamina.
and imho regardless of whether tuskarr's numbers were crunched before lunar showers, i ask you this: do you do more damage while moving or while standing still? ;)

Obviously while standing still, but you now have to ask whether the slight increase in movement is worth the constant DPS loss due to the crit/hit loss. (Given that you'd now have 12 more spirit to reforge to haste somewhere else).

The haste/crit gained from Icewalker is also now going to affect your DoTs, where as previously they did not.
Edited by Sunfyre on 11/9/2010 2:48 PM PST
85 Worgen Druid
4235

Obviously while standing still, but you now have to ask whether the slight increase in movement is worth the constant DPS loss due to the crit/hit loss. (Given that you'd now have 12 more spirit to reforge to haste somewhere else).
The haste/crit gained from Icewalker is also now going to affect your DoTs, where as previously they did not.


i'm sure you meant hit/crit on icewalker.


i'd take the movement any day, it's my opinion i suppose but i even stack movement and rocket boots because not only does it give you more time to stand there and nuke something before moving or move faster and then plant yourself and cast, but 12 crit rating isn't exactly... a ton. i can get more crit from reforging almost any given item that has spirit/hit and haste on it. we may be splitting hairs here but i'll personally take faster movement any day.
Edited by Kyiris on 11/9/2010 2:52 PM PST
80 Tauren Druid
7620

Obviously while standing still, but you now have to ask whether the slight increase in movement is worth the constant DPS loss due to the crit/hit loss. (Given that you'd now have 12 more spirit to reforge to haste somewhere else).
The haste/crit gained from Icewalker is also now going to affect your DoTs, where as previously they did not.


i'm sure you meant hit/crit on icewalker.


i'd take the movement any day, it's my opinion i suppose but i even stack movement and rocket boots because not only does it give you more time to stand there and nuke something before moving or move faster and then plant yourself and cast, but 12 crit rating isn't exactly... a ton. i can get more crit from reforging almost any given item that has spirit/hit and haste on it. we may be splitting hairs here but i'll personally take faster movement any day.


No. I meant haste/crit on Icewalker, because due to that extra 12 hit, you now have 12 spirit somewhere else you can reforge away into haste.
85 Worgen Druid
4235

No. I meant haste/crit on Icewalker, because due to that extra 12 hit, you now have 12 spirit somewhere else you can reforge away into haste.

what if you've reforged to every possible extent you can reforge previous to the icewalker? i'm feeling like we'll get into a discussion about hit capping or not. i just don't like the possibility of any randomness in my rotation.

granted if i reforged everything possible at this point i'd end up at 444 hit which... is very close and yet still annoying, + 19 more crit and + 30 or so haste.
Edited by Kyiris on 11/9/2010 3:14 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
10200
OK, so... 12 crit and 12 haste (just going with your assumption that you can do that, which is pretty flawed, but w/e) comes out to 23.4+36.6 = 60 DPS. I'm using my own stats in wrathcalcs, here, but I can't imagine EP values changing so drastically in 277 gear that you'd see any significant difference.

Over a 5min fight that's 18,000 damage. 10mins is 36,000 damage. Now, here's where things get really funky. Wrathcalcs has a basic limitation, which is that it calculates your turret DPS. It doesn't account for movement. So, if you were standing totally still and just shooting off, those stats would give you that damage done.

My nukes have a damage range of 9.7k (uneclipsed wrath) to 17.5k (eclipsed SS). Let's be messy and just split the difference, and say on average a nuke will hit for 13,600 damage, with an average cast time of 1.59s (again done in the same messy way).

Boot enchants increase your run speed by 8%, which means that for every 12.5s someone without the boots spends running, someone with tuskarr's gains an extra second (ie runs for 11.5s).

OK, so, my GCD is 1.1s. Say we need to run whatever distance it is that takes someone at normal run speed 5s. Gonna call this distance X yds, cause I have NFI what it is and I don't feel like downloading the necessary addons (or doing the google searches) to find out, and because it doesn't matter.

So, person A w/o tuskarr's runs X yds in 5s. Person B w/tuskarr's runs X yds in 4.6s

Person A gets off 4 MFs on the run, with the option of either getting a 5th MF and doing nothing while standing still for .5s, or doing nothing for .6s of running. During this run time, they also get 1 tick of MF (because of the way dot clipping works).

Person B gets off 4 MFs on the run, also + 1 tick, but their option is .2s of idleness while running, or .9s of idleness while standing. This choice is a lot more obvious.

Person B also gets started on the next nuke .4s earlier than person A. If you want to get really technical and out of touch with reality, that's 3,421 damage.

Anyway... this is rambling, probably incoherent, and very fast and dirty math. Mainly, I have two points:
In a game where movement is more and more an intrinsic part of raid encounters, movement speed boosters are going to provide a big, and twofold, benefit. First, you get out of the fire faster, meaning you save your healers some mana and GCDs. Second, you get to where you're going faster so that you can start DPSing faster.

My second point is that movement speed is very difficult to quantify. Yes, lunar showers is a huge boon to our movement DPS, but it still doesn't come close to our normal rotation, not to mention that you rarely move enough in one burst to stack it all the way to 3.

If you believe that icewalker is superior to 8% movement speed, provide your own math for it. Better yet, show us some math on why 50 haste is better than 35 mastery/8% run speed - or vise versa (cause that's something I haven't seen numbers for, yet).
90 Worgen Druid
10200
PAMCAKES!!
85 Troll Druid
6705
I have a headache so I can't begin to formulate a response any deeper than movement speed wins. Also, generally speaking, you can't assume you'll get a perfect reforge of stats -- which is why, for instance I'm using the head/shoulder enchants I am instead of the spirit versions which have more stat value. At some point, you just can't reforge any more hit/spirit away.

That said, I'm gonna go take some Advil and watch my tivo'd Conan. Co co co co.
90 Night Elf Druid
15840
pretty cool to see so many names from lightning's blade on this thread.

i wished that mastery was a bit more useful to balance druids; perhaps increasing proc-rate of shooting stars or affecting the amount of solar/lunar power we gain per spellcast. i guess it ends up being one of those stats at 85 that would end up accumulating naturally on gear.

i just read the post on EJ forums about the math for glyph of starsurge, and it seems the conclusion over there is that it'd be between glyph of wrath and glyph of starsurge being the ones left to preference/situational benefit.

biggest hit for me for 4.0 is having to transition all that heavy crit i stacked to a decent level of haste... regemming is quite annoying, but reforging helps the process a bit
leather specializations :(.... where did they go and what was the reason for removing them
90 Worgen Druid
10200
leather specializations :(.... where did they go and what was the reason for removing them


What?
- World of Warcraft
100 Night Elf Druid
14930
leather specializations :(.... where did they go and what was the reason for removing them


they are still in the game. you have to learn it at the class trainer.
85 Night Elf Druid
6265
Bumpage and thanx for the guide,

Nicely done
80 Tauren Druid
7620
pretty cool to see so many names from lightning's blade on this thread.

i wished that mastery was a bit more useful to balance druids; perhaps increasing proc-rate of shooting stars or affecting the amount of solar/lunar power we gain per spellcast. i guess it ends up being one of those stats at 85 that would end up accumulating naturally on gear.

i just read the post on EJ forums about the math for glyph of starsurge, and it seems the conclusion over there is that it'd be between glyph of wrath and glyph of starsurge being the ones left to preference/situational benefit.

biggest hit for me for 4.0 is having to transition all that heavy crit i stacked to a decent level of haste... regemming is quite annoying, but reforging helps the process a bit


Why would you have stacked heavy crit pre 4.0? There was a 42% soft crit cap.
90 Worgen Druid
10200

i just read the post on EJ forums about the math for glyph of starsurge, and it seems the conclusion over there is that it'd be between glyph of wrath and glyph of starsurge being the ones left to preference/situational benefit.


Wrath and moonfire are incredibly close right now. Close enough that it just doesn't matter. This will change for 4.0.3, but for the time being, just pick. Doesn't matter.

Why would you have stacked heavy crit pre 4.0? There was a 42% soft crit cap.

Really? We care about this? Why?
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