Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide 4.1

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80 Tauren Druid
7620

Wrath and moonfire are incredibly close right now. Close enough that it just doesn't matter. This will change for 4.0.3, but for the time being, just pick. Doesn't matter.



Wrath and Moonfire? Don't you mean wrath and starsurge?

As much as I appreciate theorycrafting, at some point you have to get out in the real world and kill internet dragons to see how things really work.

Let's look at this parse, for Lord Marrowgar, which is pretty much a tank and spank fight:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9f0b4ex5h6wyp2p9/details/15/?s=482&e=591

If you were to assume that insect swarm was up for 100% of my wrath casts (which in theory it should be), you're looking at another 40k damage for Wrath. My wrath was not glyphed.

However, if you look at the Moonfire + Sunfire damage (even with Sunfire bugged and ticking at a 3 second timer), 73k damage came from the glyph of moonfire.

Fights that are not tank and spank and require movement are even going to inflate the glyph of moonfire even more. On many fights, IS+MF+SunF do more damage then my nukes.

On a fight like this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/36mr7916dy32eeic/details/12/?s=2419&e=2546, which is the ULTIMATE tank and spank fight. (I didn't switch to blood beasts and just nuked Saurfang for about 22.3k DPS).. the glyph of Wrath would have given me about 73k bonus damage, and the glyph of moonfire gave me 61k. So, for an ultimate tank and spank fight where you just stand there and do nothing but nuke the piss out of something, you may get a little bit more bang for your buck, but that's about one fight in ICC, whereas the other 11 you're going to get more worth out of glyph of moonfire.

Edited by Sunfyre on 11/13/2010 12:15 AM PST
85 Worgen Druid
4235

Why would you have stacked heavy crit pre 4.0? There was a 42% soft crit cap.


this is no longer relevant and it was only 42% with all relevant crit buffs applied, which not everyone has the benefit of all the time.
85 Troll Druid
6705
@Sunfyre: That was a long response to something that was clearly a typo / misprint (especially if you look at the post she quoted and was responding to). Pretty darn sure El meant Wrath and Starsurge (which is what has been indicated everywhere else). I don't think anybody is arguing Moonfire and Insect Swarm are pretty much perma-locked in their two glyph spots. Wrath and Starsurge are arguable and are fight dependent.

EDIT: also, while the MF glyph does indeed work for both Sunfire and Moonfire, it only applies the 20% increase to periodic damage causing your math (which is including direct damage as well) to overvalue the glyph. This is maybe 5-10% overvaluation on these stand-and-turrets but would be even worse on a movement fight with heavier use of Lunar Shower (where including the increased number of direct damage hits would skew your numbers even more).
Edited by Calculatéd on 11/13/2010 9:07 AM PST
80 Tauren Druid
7620
EDIT: also, while the MF glyph does indeed work for both Sunfire and Moonfire, it only applies the 20% increase to periodic damage causing your math (which is including direct damage as well) to overvalue the glyph. This is maybe 5-10% overvaluation on these stand-and-turrets but would be even worse on a movement fight with heavier use of Lunar Shower (where including the increased number of direct damage hits would skew your numbers even more).


Direct damage from Moonfire and Sunfire is less then 1% of total damage, as there's very little movement in either of those fights, so you're not proc'ing lunar showers.
90 Worgen Druid
10200

Wrath and moonfire are incredibly close right now. Close enough that it just doesn't matter. This will change for 4.0.3, but for the time being, just pick. Doesn't matter.



Wrath and Moonfire? Don't you mean wrath and starsurge?

As much as I appreciate theorycrafting, at some point you have to get out in the real world and kill internet dragons to see how things really work.

Let's look at this parse, for Lord Marrowgar, which is pretty much a tank and spank fight:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9f0b4ex5h6wyp2p9/details/15/?s=482&e=591

If you were to assume that insect swarm was up for 100% of my wrath casts (which in theory it should be), you're looking at another 40k damage for Wrath. My wrath was not glyphed.

However, if you look at the Moonfire + Sunfire damage (even with Sunfire bugged and ticking at a 3 second timer), 73k damage came from the glyph of moonfire.

Fights that are not tank and spank and require movement are even going to inflate the glyph of moonfire even more. On many fights, IS+MF+SunF do more damage then my nukes.

On a fight like this: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/36mr7916dy32eeic/details/12/?s=2419&e=2546, which is the ULTIMATE tank and spank fight. (I didn't switch to blood beasts and just nuked Saurfang for about 22.3k DPS).. the glyph of Wrath would have given me about 73k bonus damage, and the glyph of moonfire gave me 61k. So, for an ultimate tank and spank fight where you just stand there and do nothing but nuke the piss out of something, you may get a little bit more bang for your buck, but that's about one fight in ICC, whereas the other 11 you're going to get more worth out of glyph of moonfire.


No it was not a typo (thanks calcythorn, though). There's also no need to be hostile, both to me and to people who weren't playing up to your specifications in the last patch.

I usually use wrathcalcs for things I can't test myself, which at the time the guide was written, glyph usage was something I wasn't able to test myself. Wrathcalcs favors stand and turrent fights. Using my own stats, it has the following DPS values:
Glyph of IS only: 12,175 DPS
IS+MF only: 12, 445
IS+wrath only: 12,417

I find a DPS gain of 28 to be fairly minimal.

As you said, on movement fights, MF is probably going to shine, likely due to not getting off as many wraths as you otherwise would in a stand still fight.

But you know what? There are 2 weeks of raiding left before Cataclysm. Even for 33k damage, it simply just doesn't matter anymore.

I assure you, I plan on being much more stringent with the info that will be in the level 85 guide. If you'd like to help, and can avoid being snarky, there's a post on the moonkin repository forums with the info I've dug up. I'm heavily reliant on people checking my numbers and telling me what beta is like, since I don't have a beta account, so any additional eyes I can get would be tremendously helpful.
80 Tauren Druid
7620

No it was not a typo (thanks calcythorn, though). There's also no need to be hostile, both to me and to people who weren't playing up to your specifications in the last patch.

I usually use wrathcalcs for things I can't test myself, which at the time the guide was written, glyph usage was something I wasn't able to test myself. Wrathcalcs favors stand and turrent fights. Using my own stats, it has the following DPS values:
Glyph of IS only: 12,175 DPS
IS+MF only: 12, 445
IS+wrath only: 12,417

I find a DPS gain of 28 to be fairly minimal.

As you said, on movement fights, MF is probably going to shine, likely due to not getting off as many wraths as you otherwise would in a stand still fight.

But you know what? There are 2 weeks of raiding left before Cataclysm. Even for 33k damage, it simply just doesn't matter anymore.

I assure you, I plan on being much more stringent with the info that will be in the level 85 guide. If you'd like to help, and can avoid being snarky, there's a post on the moonkin repository forums with the info I've dug up. I'm heavily reliant on people checking my numbers and telling me what beta is like, since I don't have a beta account, so any additional eyes I can get would be tremendously helpful.


I apologize, the snarkiness was not aimed at you. I try to stay away from TMR, EJ, etc, because most of the people there only seem to know how to crunch numbers but are still running around in ICC10 gear. At some point real game application has to set in. (I often sit at a training dummy and pour 5mil damage into it in multiple configurations just to see how things play out). Once 4.0.3 sets in, the moonfire glyph will even be more valued as Sunfire is fixed.

I also do not think that WrathCalcs and other simulations look at the fact that with end game haste levels, glyph of Starsurge aligns your starfall into lunar eclipse almost perfectly (assuming you cast your first starfall at the beginning of lunar). This gives a much higher DPS value to the glyph. This obviously will not ring true at level 85 due to the haste scaling.
85 Troll Druid
6705
EDIT: also, while the MF glyph does indeed work for both Sunfire and Moonfire, it only applies the 20% increase to periodic damage causing your math (which is including direct damage as well) to overvalue the glyph. This is maybe 5-10% overvaluation on these stand-and-turrets but would be even worse on a movement fight with heavier use of Lunar Shower (where including the increased number of direct damage hits would skew your numbers even more).


Direct damage from Moonfire and Sunfire is less then 1% of total damage, as there's very little movement in either of those fights, so you're not proc'ing lunar showers.


Which is pretty much exactly what I said if you read and understood it. I think you only read. Your mistake caused you overvalue the glyph even on these stand and turret fights by around 5-10% (varied between the two fights you captioned). I said, on OTHER fights (i.e. fights that do have more movement - Heroic Lich King for instance). On those fights, if you continued to misunderstand how the MF glyph works, your mistake would cause even more over-valuation which could in turn cause bad decision making on which glyph to carry.

I apologize, the snarkiness was not aimed at you. I try to stay away from TMR, EJ, etc, because most of the people there only seem to know how to crunch numbers but are still running around in ICC10 gear. At some point real game application has to set in. (I often sit at a training dummy and pour 5mil damage into it in multiple configurations just to see how things play out). Once 4.0.3 sets in, the moonfire glyph will even be more valued as Sunfire is fixed.

I also do not think that WrathCalcs and other simulations look at the fact that with end game haste levels, glyph of Starsurge aligns your starfall into lunar eclipse almost perfectly (assuming you cast your first starfall at the beginning of lunar). This gives a much higher DPS value to the glyph. This obviously will not ring true at level 85 due to the haste scaling.


Snarkiness is snarkiness no matter who it's aimed at . . . and generalizations usually suck. Do an armory check at many of the folks at EJ and I think you'll find many are in BiS gear, world top 100 guids. Yes, there is theory crafting and number crunching but you are highly mistaken if you think there is no game world validation going on. If you actually read the EJ forums through the expansion beta process, you would have seen countless target dummy logs that I posted for instance that had 25-50 million damage a pop (for each build no less).

Wrathcalcs is very useful for what it is. Clearly you have to apply and modify what you learn from it and not take it as gospel but it is a very good baseline. For instance, it won't tell you that Starsurge glyph lines up your Starfall for every Valk wave on HLK . . . but it does a good bit of the heavy lifting that help us define stat valuations and the like. So, yes, it is not the answer to life, the world, and everything, but it is a very good tool.

Finally, your damage damage output and game accomplishments are no greater (and in many cases worse) than those you are criticizing so don't cast your argument in those terms. I will admit I bring some ego to this conversation (and have been known to be snarky on occasion as well) but on my best days, I try to keep that to a minimum.

Heck, I'll even admit that there's a member of my guild who's main is a mage plays Moonkin substantially better than I do (better than you as well if damage numbers are the indicating factor). So, I'm not even the best moonkin in my guild let alone the US or the world. I can pace your numbers but we're both world top-200, not top 10. There are definitely better players out there than the both of us (and I don't mean better-geared -- I mean outright better players sitting between the chair and the keyboard). So check that at the door a bit and keep the conversation useful and constructive.
80 Tauren Druid
7620

Heck, I'll even admit that there's a member of my guild who's main is a mage plays Moonkin substantially better than I do (better than you as well if damage numbers are the indicating factor). So, I'm not even the best moonkin in my guild let alone the US or the world. I can pace your numbers but we're both world top-200, not top 10. There are definitely better players out there than the both of us (and I don't mean better-geared -- I mean outright better players sitting between the chair and the keyboard). So check that at the door a bit and keep the conversation useful and constructive.


I apologize for not having e-peened out damage meters when insect swarm was overpowered.
90 Worgen Druid
10200

I apologize, the snarkiness was not aimed at you. I try to stay away from TMR, EJ, etc, because most of the people there only seem to know how to crunch numbers but are still running around in ICC10 gear. At some point real game application has to set in. (I often sit at a training dummy and pour 5mil damage into it in multiple configurations just to see how things play out). Once 4.0.3 sets in, the moonfire glyph will even be more valued as Sunfire is fixed.

I also do not think that WrathCalcs and other simulations look at the fact that with end game haste levels, glyph of Starsurge aligns your starfall into lunar eclipse almost perfectly (assuming you cast your first starfall at the beginning of lunar). This gives a much higher DPS value to the glyph. This obviously will not ring true at level 85 due to the haste scaling.


And I think that brings something valuable to the table. I think you're right that people (myself included) can lose touch with what's really going on, and having someone waving a little flag going "hey, no... wait a sec" is a good thing. And everyone gets snarky; I've had my days. And I think that sometimes snark can be a good thing. But in a situation where the conversation needs to be constructive, it's best to try and tone it down as much as possible.

Overall, there are a couple factors in play right now:
One, I've been terribly busy IRL the past 2 weeks or so and simply haven't been keeping up with all the minor changes coming out both in beta and on live.

Two, I'm not taking this particular iteration of the guide too seriously. I see it as a way for people to not flounder helplessly in the down time between 4.0 and cata release. But I have no intention of it necessarily being the end-all be-all absolute DPS maximizer guide. Nor do I think such a thing is necessary for this interim.

Even if you tend to stay away from TMR, I'd really love the feedback of people who think about things, whether those things are in game factors or just raw numbers. I need more eyes to look things over, because I do want the level 85 version of the guide to be serious, and to be taken seriously. It still isn't necessarily going to be an OMGMINMAXEVERYTHINGBLARG guide, simply because of the nature of target audience (official forum goers, who tend to need more basic advice). But I will be paying much more attention to detail then than I am now.
85 Troll Druid
6705
I apologize for not having e-peened out damage meters when insect swarm was overpowered.


I was traveling on business that Tuesday and didn't record anything pre-damage nerf either . . . but if that's all you took from what I said . . . you missed the point completely. The point was to bring some humility to the conversation and assume people at EJ, TMR, WoW forums, your site's forums, wherever have value to add until they prove differently rather than stating they are mostly spreadsheet jockeys wearing ICC 10 gear.

Here, let me take another shot at cutting the e-peen down a bit . . . the ALT (I repeat ALT) moonkin in my guild didn't play during that time either . . .yet he is setting world top 10 and top 25 records the past two weeks in gear that is good but not of the quality you and I are wearing AND with a class he plays only part-time. He is junking your damage and mine and most of the rest of the world's (including people who set records with pre-nerf coefficients) . . . with his alt post-nerf in lesser gear. Having someone's alt out-damage your main is humbling ain't it. Try and bring some of that humility and perspective to this conversation.

Experience in end-game content and time spent on rotation is absolutely of critical importance. The insight gained is extremely valuable and cannot be replicated by a spreadsheet or sideline analysis. However, you don't have an exclusive on this experience or insight (or even the most experience -- I've got a month on you in HLK/Halion and Paragon and a host of other guilds have 2-3 months on me). Alot of people in those guilds contribute at EJ (and to a lesser extent to this and the other sites mentioned above) and are hardly sideline jockeys stuck in spreadsheets.

At the end of the day, I don't disagree with the core point of experience matters. I just disagree with your delivery of that point and your assessment that, while you and yours are rife with it, EJ and other sources are clueless to what goes on in the game world. Anywho, we could ramble on about this for way too long (already have honestly), but try and keep it in check.

EDIT: speaking of humility, even as a forum alumni, I've got to say the Gators are craptastic this year. I can't even make it through watching a full game. ./sigh
Edited by Calculatéd on 11/13/2010 8:11 PM PST
85 Worgen Druid
4235
bump to report patch 4.0.3 (likely tomorrow) will adjust sunfire to tick at moonfire's rate :)
85 Troll Druid
6705
bump to report patch 4.0.3 (likely tomorrow) will adjust sunfire to tick at moonfire's rate :)


finally. well, i guess i always said, as long as they get it before cata and they did so . . .
90 Worgen Druid
10200
bump to report patch 4.0.3 (likely tomorrow) will adjust sunfire to tick at moonfire's rate :)


Awesome, thanks for the heads up.
Edited by Eluial on 11/15/2010 3:37 PM PST
90 Worgen Druid
10200
/does a happy dance for sunfire fixing
85 Night Elf Druid
2670
Don't mind me, just reporting for sticky.
90 Night Elf Druid
10955
<3 Eluilol
90 Night Elf Druid
6925
I'm posting because I heard mention of snark.
85 Troll Druid
6705
Did a variety of testing today just seeing how a fixed Sunfire was lining up from a damage profile and, more importantly, messing with Custom Lag Tolerance feature. It defaults to 400 ms if unchecked. I set it to zero, to my latency (around 80-90 ms), to a little over double my latency (200 ms), etc. Honestly, default of 400 ms (unchecked) was working best for me. Anything else and I was keybinding spells and they weren't going off as expected.

Anywho, I got in about 9 mil damage on a dummy (before damn elemental invasion made dummies disappear). I was hovering around 14k (sometimes a couple hundred above, sometimes a couple hundred below). Sunfire is pacing very nicely with Moonfire now and refreshes are much cleaner with always casting IS first regardless of Eclipse state. Looks good heading into Cata.
85 Troll Druid
6705
I'm posting because I heard mention of snark.


oh good god. look what the cat dragged in. first alamo, then ika. damn expansions :)
90 Night Elf Druid
6925
I'm posting because I heard mention of snark.


oh good god. look what the cat dragged in. first alamo, then ika. damn expansions :)


SIGNS OF THE BEARPOCALYPSE!

REPENT! AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED!
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