Female characters in WoW

(Locked)

85 Blood Elf Mage
4230
I'm still hoping they do something with Lady Liadrin.

I agree.

-Garona Halforcen
-Magatha Grimtotem
-Tyrande Whisperwind
-Jaina Proundmoore
-Sylvanas Windrunner
-Vereesa Windrunner
-Alleria Windrunner
-Maeiv Shadowsong
-Magna Aegwynn

Garona; Disappeared for over two decades' worth of lore; returns now to facilitate killing Cho'Gall.

Magatha; Betrays everyone and will very likely be a rotting corpse by the end of Cataclysm.

Tyrande; Doesn't do anything in-game. Completely unused as a character, despite her clear role and motives in Warcraft III.

Jaina; see above, except add in "Fought alongside Varian then teleported everyone out," "Cries," and "Told Varian to be nice to Thrall," in essence. She's nothing like she was in Warcraft III.

Sylvanas; I already talked about her. She's the most visible female character in the game; and also the single-most polarizing faction leader in the game. Yes, she's visible, but she's very, very singular.

Vereesa; stands around next to Rhonin and talks to people who are on one questline; otherwise she does nothing.

Alleria; disappeared and has stayed gone for the past twenty years of the lore.

Maiev; fulfilled her purpose, hasn't been seen since. At all. She was a strong character, sure, but the fact remains she hasn't done anything since, and that she did very little before, killing Illidan.

Aegwynn; dead. For all her power and usefulness as a character, she's dead. And she never appeared in-game.

We aren't asking for more female characters in general. We're asking to see them do things more in-game. How is that unreasonable? Half the characters you listed either stand there doing nothing, are MIA, or dead.
The only ones who do something in game are Garona, who is involved with some quests in the Twilight Highlands, Magatha, who goes evil, and Sylvanas, who is... well, Sylvanas.

We want to see more strong female characters that are taking up the heroic roles, rather than being relegated to "Stand there and look pretty."

(As an aside; I am actually a guy; this is just my main, and therefore I post on my main. :P I just happen to think Blizzard needs to portray more strong female characters that aren't crazy and evil.)
Edited by Vaethria on 11/7/2010 11:27 AM PST
85 Orc Shaman
7135

We aren't asking for more female characters in general. We're asking to see them do things more in-game. How is that unreasonable? Half the characters you listed either stand there doing nothing, are MIA, or dead.
The only ones who do something in game are Garona, who is involved with some quests in the Twilight Highlands, Magatha, who goes evil, and Sylvanas, who is... well, Sylvanas.

We want to see more strong female characters that are taking up the heroic roles, rather than being relegated to "Stand there and look pretty."

(As an aside; I am actually a guy; this is just my main, and therefore I post on my main. :P I just happen to think Blizzard needs to portray more strong female characters that aren't crazy and evil.)


I don't think that is unreasonable. I think I just misinterpreted it as a more unreasonable request.

And I think it's also that I just put value into past actions more than what I see in game currently. Some of those heroes aren't in the current game, but they left behind legendary legacies and new ones will come with future stories.

I don't really want to keep arguing about specifics of characters though because it has potential to turn into a flame war (I've already received a few thinly veiled insults from some people for stating my opinions) and in a big way it's just how you perceive the world (of warcraft) rather than it being a matter of right or wrong.
85 Orc Shaman
7135

There's nothing wrong with asking for an addition they feel is lacking. People want to see more strong female characters - emphasis on the 'strong' - so they can help add another layer of diversity. People aren't exactly wrong when they say strong female characters in WoW are often delegated to villainous roles (Sylvanas, Moira, Azshara, etc.), or otherwise have minor roles (Garona, Alleira, Liadrin).

Plus it doesn't help we have characters like Jaina - who used to be a respectable leader and has since become the butt of many jokes due to her being very sappy in Wrath.

See, this is what I call 'railing against a cause to look cool.' In a sense, you're right, it almost is discrimination more towards males than empowering females. But really, you're misinterpreting the point of what's being made, and the reality is that they're asking for more to counter the lack of positive representation towards women, rather than to take the role of male characters down.

The problem here is that there is a problem with the representation of females in WoW. Most powerful female characters are either evil, or have minor roles. So when we look at female characters like Jaina and try to find a counterpoint to their stereotypical overly-emotional state, the only examples we have are evil characters like Sylvanas (who is not only the most controversial and discussed female character, but perhaps the most controversial character in-game right now) and a few other minor roles that pale in comparison to her.

People aren't just asking for female characters to get more midriffs akin to Sylvanas and Jaina. Specifically, they're asking for strong and likeable female characters who don't make it seem like females in WoW are at two different extremes.


Sadface :(

I wrote a long response and the forums appear to have just eaten it.

Short version: I do think I misinterpreted things a bit, and I agree with you on some things and disagree on others. I could elaborate, but too sad from post being eaten.

Edit: If folks just feel like I am "railing on their cause to be cool" as you put it, rather than stating my opinion which was what I was trying to do, then I think I will just stop posting in this thread to avoid pushing any big red buttons.
Edited by Makorr on 11/7/2010 5:06 PM PST
80 Undead Warlock
2540
I lol'd at a post on the old forums where someone suggested that Aggra be a strong independent orc women who eventually meets Thrall after a while other then " a wild Aggre appearing and Thrall catching her with his pokeball."
80 Undead Warlock
2540


You guys are forgetting Aegwynn and that the entire Sentinel army are women, both of which are also very powerful. The latter isn't a character, sure, but it's thousands of them.

I think the issue is every female character has to be a second fiddle to male characters. With Aegwynn It's Medivh.
90 Orc Warrior
10290
You guys are forgetting Aegwynn and that the entire Sentinel army are women, both of which are also very powerful. The latter isn't a character, sure, but it's thousands of them.

I think the issue is every female character has to be a second fiddle to male characters. With Aegwynn It's Medivh.

Exactly....
Vereesa=Second fiddle to Rhonin
Alleria=Second fiddle to Turalyon
Tyrande=Second fiddle to Malfurion.....which is even more inexusable because females actually wear the pants in NE society.
And Aggra I will bet my entire stash of gold WILL play second fiddle to Thrall as well.

Pretty much leaving Sylvanas as the only major female not playing second fiddle to a man. Maybe Garona as well if Blizz expands her role in Cata.
Edited by Lochnar on 11/7/2010 11:02 PM PST
90 Dwarf Paladin
10690


Pretty much leaving Sylvanas as the only major female not playing second fiddle to a man.


But it doesn't help that the Banshee Hooker's a murderous psychopath, and she's not exactly liked among the Alliance either.
Edited by Dallanna on 11/7/2010 11:00 PM PST
90 Orc Warrior
10290


Pretty much leaving Sylvanas as the only major female not playing second fiddle to a man.


But it doesn't help that the Banshee Hooker's a murderous psychopath, and she's not exactly liked among the Alliance either.


Completely missing the point here.....


Other female characters, both Alliance and Horde, need to be written with some of the same indepedence that Sylvie has.

85 Orc Death Knight
3000
The problem with all of this in general is from a lore stand point, how many powerful men will allow a woman to lead them? We're talking in complete general here, to become as powerful as they are they need to be trained to their full potential. It's accepted that a lot of guys are unable to understand the female psyche and as such would find it difficult to mentor to a woman, which is need if you're going to teach that person everything you know.

I mean face it, if I've spent all of my time getting stronger to kill this or that so that I can protect those who can't protect themselves I would find it difficult to relate emotionally to a woman (who has far stronger emotions than a male) that hasn't seen the horrors of war that I have.

It just seems to me that many of you 'want' this but can't see how hard it is for that to become possible. Elven customs allow for them to have many powerful women, they have a tendency for their women to be the less emotional gender. Orcs are just completely brutal and as such their women have to be strong.

Most races are just patriarchal, a warrior has to have someone who will be their emotional support; someone to go home to who will help that warrior through their nightmares. Women are just better at these things and as such tend to fill that role, otherwise said warriors would break down and become suicidal. Especially with the constant in flux powerful destroyers.

Take IRL, how many men do you know who will openly cry? Releasing their pent up frustrations and worries? Not many, most men are taught from ultra young that crying is weak, and that being weak makes you unworthy. So men fight against their emotions and the world. Women are allowed more freedom to express their feelings outside of physical pursuits.

Thus we go back to my original statement, the men who have been in charge of Azeroth from the beginning and have been trained from youth by their fathers, find it difficult to mentor to women. As such these women go half trained, and become jacks of all trades rather than true masters. So new strong women need to be brought in now so that at least the x-pac after cata they'll be ready(lorewise) to take command of whatever is happening.

Here is where I apologize if my post seems rude or demeaning in any way, or if its redundant(I'm just a bit unhinged). I also apologize for any grammar and it's length(i'm also long winded).
The problem with all of this in general is from a lore stand point, how many powerful men will allow a woman to lead them?


Quite a few, actually. Characterizing men as brutish bull-headed misogynists is simply a generalization. Jaina led a large group of survivors to a new land and allied them with their enemies. Quite a few of those people were men. And there they were, following her orders. There are many other examples.

Also, what is all this about emotions (or the lack/suppression of) and its supposed connection to strength or dominance? Your perception that men are naturally emotionally inept is off - you pointed to the actual problem in your post, as well, that men are taught by their parents to not show their emotion. But that does not mean that they do not have them.

The generalizations made are simply that. Not all men are warriors. Not all women are maids. Not all men hide their emotion. Not all women cry when they squish a bug. Fitting the genders into those specific roles is exactly the problem that is being addressed in this post. Why can't the feminine be the hero? Why does she have to sit at home and be there for a man to come back to?

Thus we go back to my original statement, the men who have been in charge of Azeroth from the beginning and have been trained from youth by their fathers, find it difficult to mentor to women. As such these women go half trained, and become jacks of all trades rather than true masters. So new strong women need to be brought in now so that at least the x-pac after cata they'll be ready(lorewise) to take command of whatever is happening.


I don't know of many instances in WoW of men being unable to follow the orders of a female commander. Heroes aren't trained to be such. Leaders aren't always molded to be so. There are plenty of (though not enough) strong women in-game now, it's just that they're pushed to the side, represented poorly, etc.

Not everything is so properly placed. Ever.
The problem with all of this in general is from a lore stand point, how many powerful men will allow a woman to lead them?


just about every Night Elf male?
Night elves have a Matriarchal society afterall.
85 Orc Death Knight
3000
Also, what is all this about emotions (or the lack/suppression of) and its supposed connection to strength or dominance? Your perception that men are naturally emotionally inept is off - you pointed to the actual problem in your post, as well, that men are taught by their parents to not show their emotion. But that does not mean that they do not have them.

The generalizations made are simply that. Not all men are warriors. Not all women are maids. Not all men hide their emotion. Not all women cry when they squish a bug. Fitting the genders into those specific roles is exactly the problem that is being addressed in this post. Why can't the feminine be the hero? Why does she have to sit at home and be there for a man to come back to? [/qoute]

Why are you getting upset with my generalizing then going to the extreme with it later? We're talking general for the lore if you pay attention. Most of the armies are full of men, showing that yeah most of the men of Azeroth go into the army. In fact the general look of Azeroth is with brutish men and complex women(read mages).

And to the whole emotionally inept thing... yeah most men I know are. In fact I seem to be completely devoid of any lesser emotion. But I'm also a bit unhinged. Thus we go back to these complex women realizing that for their nations to continue someone needs to be the voice of emotion for a world led by testosterone induced meatheads, look at the general WoW male sprite, all of them look as if they're the types maxing out every day at the gym.

We aren't talking about our world here, we're talking about a world that's seen war for years on end. The men in charge are going to be losing their hold on what emotions they have just so they can continue the fight. Sure the women can join in and it can even be encouraged, but to what end when sooner or later everyone will have pushed their emotions aside completely or have drowned them away with a tankard.

Then everyone will be like Arthas and what then?

Thus we go back to my original statement, the men who have been in charge of Azeroth from the beginning and have been trained from youth by their fathers, find it difficult to mentor to women. As such these women go half trained, and become jacks of all trades rather than true masters. So new strong women need to be brought in now so that at least the x-pac after cata they'll be ready(lorewise) to take command of whatever is happening.


I don't know of many instances in WoW of men being unable to follow the orders of a female commander. Heroes aren't trained to be such. Leaders aren't always molded to be so. There are plenty of (though not enough) strong women in-game now, it's just that they're pushed to the side, represented poorly, etc.

Not everything is so properly placed. Ever.


Though funny that you reinforced what I said at the beginning of my post here. That the men don't want to follow a lot of women. I said new strong women need to implemented now so that they can be being mentored by whoever so that they're prepared for the challenges they'll face. Everyone is saying that there aren't enough 'strong' women in the game, well there can't suddenly be new strong women who come out of nowhere. They have to be trained and taught by someone. Be that someone male or female there has to be someone.

I guess I'm finding it more and more difficult to express the maelstrom of my thoughts into something so focused.
i would vote for Jol to step up as an Advisor to Velen (she's a Vindicator in the Exodar, she's the one you go to for your quests) alongside Nobundo, give her a more warlike personality and voila.
seeing as she's a fiarly bland character right now (just a class questgiver), she'd be easy to fix up by adding personality and a promotion to strong female role.
85 Orc Death Knight
3000
The problem with all of this in general is from a lore stand point, how many powerful men will allow a woman to lead them?


just about every Night Elf male?
Night elves have a Matriarchal society afterall.


I do believe I made mention of that. That elven races are backwards when compared to the others? Women being the less emotional? Thus willing to make necessary sacrifices, no all women are willing to let a bunch of other women die just so that they can live, whereas men would consider it an honor to die for whatever. Unless suddenly women enjoy death and destruction as much as men do, this leaves us with the question of who's holding us from shooting nukes at each other of course.( I find myself curious to see the outcome of such a disaster suddenly, but again I'm perhaps a little unhinged.)
90 Night Elf Druid
12885
The problem with all of this in general is from a lore stand point, how many powerful men will allow a woman to lead them?


just about every Night Elf male?
Night elves have a Matriarchal society afterall.


It's only really been matriarchal during the long vigil? Before then the male=druid, female=priestess split would tend to leave the leadership in the Elune-botherers' hands given that druids seem more concerned with their hippie tree-hugging duties.

Have to wonder about NE's concept of 'leadership' as well in comparison to other races. Once the majority of your population gets a few thousand years of life behind them you'd have to imagine they've all had a go at some kind of leadership role at one time or another. I could well imagine trying to 'lead' a nation of 10,000 year old beings would be like trying to herd cats. In short I think Tyrande only makes 'suggestions' which the collective experience of the rest lets them know its the right thing to do/follow up.

85 Human Mage
4460
I'd say the Blood Elves should have a Queen. A good book about Lor'themar seeking out a living Sunstrider and finding a young woman, a Sorceress, would cover things nicely, minus the fact that almost 80% of Horde lore is presented in the game itself, not in books or comics.

I forget their names, but their is a female troll shaman, and a female troll druid from the Fall of Zalazane event, and they both could become pretty strong female characters if Blizzard developed them, though they -both- seem like armcandy for Vol'jin by the end of it. Do the trolls support Polygamy?

Moira seems to be a fairly strong female character, though perhaps shaken when Varian reminded her of her place in Society and the Alliance.

I'd support the new Alliance Archbishop being a woman.
Both sides really lack proper Warlock heroes, and both sides could have them as strong-willed women. Blizzard might endorse that one a bit more readily, since it paints two strong women in a darker light, like Sylvanas whom by far is their most successful female lore character.
90 Worgen Priest
7480
I'd say the Blood Elves should have a Queen. A good book about Lor'themar seeking out a living Sunstrider and finding a young woman, a Sorceress, would cover things nicely, minus the fact that almost 80% of Horde lore is presented in the game itself, not in books or comics.

I forget their names, but their is a female troll shaman, and a female troll druid from the Fall of Zalazane event, and they both could become pretty strong female characters if Blizzard developed them, though they -both- seem like armcandy for Vol'jin by the end of it. Do the trolls support Polygamy?

Moira seems to be a fairly strong female character, though perhaps shaken when Varian reminded her of her place in Society and the Alliance.

I'd support the new Alliance Archbishop being a woman.
Both sides really lack proper Warlock heroes, and both sides could have them as strong-willed women. Blizzard might endorse that one a bit more readily, since it paints two strong women in a darker light, like Sylvanas whom by far is their most successful female lore character.


Well there is High Priestess Laurena so there is a possibility she can be the new Archbishop.

Also, I hope Heroic Deadmines isn't the last we hear of Vanessa Vancleef, even though it probably is. Even as a villian, she seemed pretty dynamic to me throughout the Westfall questline.

If nothing else, she knows how to make her presence felt.
90 Human Paladin
8185
While I agree, there's only so much screen time to go around. This conflict is about Garrosh vs Varian and Thrall vs the elements. There's some conflict in IF and Sylvannas definitely plays a large role, but how would you add an established lore character to the existing story without either having them play second fiddle or completely alter the current story?

Seeing as how Tiffin is dead, I don't know why anyone mentioned her. And you can't really bring Calia into the picture without some major groundbreaking things happening, and I'm afraid Azeroth can only handle so much right now.

Jaina does need better writing though.
85 Tauren Paladin
7910
I forget their names, but their is a female troll shaman, and a female troll druid from the Fall of Zalazane event, and they both could become pretty strong female characters if Blizzard developed them, though they -both- seem like armcandy for Vol'jin by the end of it. Do the trolls support Polygamy?


The shaman is Vanira, and Zen'Tabra is the druid.
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