Arms Warriors and PVE

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80 Human Warrior
7140
Not going to lie, after the last patch I'm a little concerned about Arms for PVE at 85. It was the goal of blizzard to not have this spec left in the dust like it was in the past expansion. Running out the door in 4.0 hit, the spec was garbage.

After a hot fix the damage was buffed, but its in the same rut its been in WOTLK. Bottom of the barrel, not as good as Fury.

I know the spec is so supposed to be balanced with Colossus Smash used in the rotation but that doesn't really change the fact that it still not doing so hot on Beta.

There are many issues and many things that many players are wondering about. We know that mastery has an ICD to stop it from proccing off itself, but it also stops it from proccing off things like Bladestorm, Cleave, or any other multi-target attack.

Haste still is terrible because of the amount it takes to get a significant benefit from (Haste could be worth getting since it would help with the Mastery Proc, Rage Generation, Sudden Death Procs, and Deep Wounds).

I don't know it just kind of feels like we're starting again like last expansion. Blizzard does things to make it good in PVE, but when it starts to trail they kind of turn and go, "You always have this other spec..."

I know this isn't the only spec like this in this situation (Looks at Frost Mages, and Sub Rogues)
85 Orc Warrior
9220
I've run out of ways to say "Haste sucks, please fix it", "Too many procs and debuffs too watch", and "I have no free points for cross-spec utility".
100 Human Warrior
14525
Yeah right now haste is still terrible on Arms warriors, which makes how prevalent haste is on cata gear very disheartening. The current theorycraft over at EJ is showing haste's net effect on sudden death uptime is minimal, and similarly the benefits to SoO and Deep Wounds is minimal. Also since the base rage gen is relatively low compared to Fury the effect on rage gen is pretty low. Similarly Arms white damage is low, so the effect on that is low. Haste also scales negatively with Slam, and potentially scales negatively with Deadly Calm (causes more lost rage as you get more swings within the deadly calm window, if you generate more than 10 rage per second chances are you're wasting rage during that window).


There's also the problem that if they increase our active ability damage too much, it gives arms too much burst which becomes a problem in PVP. What would be ideal is to increase white damage and rend damage, while reducing the other special damage, bringing white damage up to ~20%. Also let Rend (and thus TFB) scale with haste, and make Slam no longer negatively scale with haste (ie scale its cast time with haste). That would help immeasurably with haste scaling all told.

Also to help out, I'd bump up baseline rage generation, to make it more comparable to fury, and bump up rage costs again appropriately. This is to make haste rage scaling allow more heroic strikes appropriately, whereas right now Fury gets 30% more heroic strikes, while having harder hitting heroic strikes. (Alternatively a passive bonus in arms to bump up AP or something to make heroic strike hit harder for it, but that would give more PVP burst which is what we want to avoid).



The last thing would be changing Deadly Calm and Bladestorm to make it so extra rage generated isn't just straight up wasted. Say allowing Heroic Strike to be used during bladestorm (so if you're about to cap out on rage during bladestorm you can heroic strike to bleed off rage), and for deadly calm make it so inner rage can be used during it, but you still pay the extra rage cost. (ie if you're using Slam, rage cost gets increased from 15 to 22, during deadly calm you can use inner rage and use slam for 7 rage). This lets you activate inner rage during deadly calm and get the damage boost while preventing you from capping out on rage and being guaranteed to waste rage if you're generating more than a full bar over 10 seconds. It also makes rage management as arms a bit less tight and a bit nicer.
85 Worgen Warrior
7885
Sry if u disagree but I think our mastery needs to be bleed damage, at least its something new. Making deep wounds and rend do some super damage if you wish the stat that way.

The whole extra swing thing is kinda weak, if I wanted more hits per sec I would go fury plain and simple, maybe fury should have the arms talent as well. Regardless I am not too fond of the masteries, blizz will have to make them op in order for me to choose them, but making them OP would suck.
100 Human Warrior
14525
Sry if u disagree but I think our mastery needs to be bleed damage, at least its something new. Making deep wounds and rend do some super damage if you wish the stat that way.

The whole extra swing thing is kinda weak, if I wanted more hits per sec I would go fury plain and simple, maybe fury should have the arms talent as well. Regardless I am not too fond of the masteries, blizz will have to make them op in order for me to choose them, but making them OP would suck.


Arms' mastery is actually really good, it's roughly on par with Crit for damage per point, and gives arms more damage without increasing burst potential which is important.

Bleed Damage is already the Feral Mastery, and our bleeds are a very small part of our damage, to make the mastery a potent enough stat, the damage boost would have to be huge.

Trust me, we don't want to end up like Unholy DKs mastery.
85 Worgen Warrior
7885
All I am saying is its new that, an extra swing is more like an extra crit chance. Not really gaining a new source of damage, while mastery as bleed wouldn't change our gameplay but change the effectiveness on a part of it, as well as of course if it was optional.

Regardless as long as all stats can shine and not one is just totally stomping on the other we should be fine. If it was truly optional I'd always stat for crit and str, reliable and fun to watch big numbers.

I don't want mastery being the new ArP in the sense u want to ignore everything else even ur main stat for it. But I also hate an inconsistent source of damage as my mastery, personally.
85 Worgen Warrior
7885
"Your rend becomes infected, weakening your enemy and allowing your attacks to bypass x% of his/her armor. Effect increased by x% per point of mastery."

Might get completely out of hand at 85 with gear scaling though. It'd also end up eliminating the need for Colossus Smash too, so maybe it's just a horrible idea anyways...


Not sure what u mean by this, I am talking increases bleed damage not bleed damage causing u to ignore armor, that's the same as ArP, which I was never a fan of, in terms of a free to stack stat
100 Human Warrior
14525
All I am saying is its new that, an extra swing is more like an extra crit chance. Not really gaining a new source of damage, while mastery as bleed wouldn't change our gameplay but change the effectiveness on a part of it, as well as of course if it was optional.

It being like an extra crit chance is good though, because that makes its value balanceable in a similar manner to crit. Testing has also shown it procs off things like hamstring and sunder armor, which is pretty cool, given you can't crit with those abilities.

On the other hand increased bleed damage is pretty boring, already done by feral, devalues haste even further, and puts us in the same spot as Unholy for mastery (where they can't increase the value high enough to make the mastery stat worthwhile without making things really weird and unbalanced)

That said I agree the armorpen as mastery suggestion is a pretty bad one. It has the penalty of devaluing CS (and as such the sudden death proc), and reintroduces a stat that the devs wanted to get rid of.

Personally I think Arms mastery is fine as is. It's a lot of other things about Arms, namely the things that cause its haste scaling to be so bad that need to be looked at.


Funnily enough, on live anyway, Arms is better AOE dmg than fury.


Maybe. Arms has some definite strengths in that area, but Meat Cleaver is actually really good. A +30% damage to cleave and bringing WW up to ~80% weapon damage is really nice.

For that short period on beta where SS was 100% uptime with no resource cost, it was amazing, but at this point I'd argue they're pretty equal outside of bladestorm .
Edited by Secondwind on 11/7/2010 5:03 PM PST
80 Human Warrior
7140
Funnily enough, on live anyway, Arms is better AOE dmg than fury.

The only way Arms can do a lot more AOE damage is if they spec blood and thunder (Which I do cause its amazing) but that may not be an option at 85. Outside of that they're equal.
But Arms shouldn't be the, "We need a lot of AOE, why don't you spec arms for this fight?" Spec. It should be like Arcane is to Fire, like Unholy to Frost.

Also slam really needs to be looked at. The ability isn't actually 15 Rage, its more like 19.3-19.6 rage due to it pausing the swing timer. If blizzard wants us to keep using slam as a filler than it has to not pause our swing timer and hurt our DPS. This could be solved easily via Improved Slam. It needs to act like steady shot, not it's current implication.

This would also go a long way in making haste a better stat for us.
Edited by Curoar on 11/7/2010 5:33 PM PST
85 Worgen Warrior
7885
I don't really hate the extra swing or anything but I also do not think the bleed is as bad as you say. First off, if blizzard's goal is for these stats to be valued a bit more a choice(not a forced option) then it would be great.

The synergy of increased bleed damage is this, it can scale with haste like how other DoTs would, it can be buffed by crit- more uptime as well as DoT crits. Bleeds are also a different source and type of damage than basic hits. Deep wounds is a short duration that requires a crit to proc, I would say that is good synergy with other stats and abilities. Rend may be very potent so but the main contributor I would have to aim at is deep wounds but rend would still be mighty.

Applying diseases are a bit different than our bleeds, for one deep wounds is an auto proc and nothing but a overpower proc is effected by our bleeds whereas DKs have everything on the line of whether they have their target diseased or not.

Not sure why feral having one near the same has anything to do with us having it or not.

I am not against the whole extra swing thing at all but personally would love it for fury instead of a weird enrage buff, but then what would arms have.

Bleed as a mastery is along the line with many masteries anyway, you can't say it is something bad and wont work either when looking at frost DKs locks, mages and such who have masters that only increase their damage by x% basically on a huge part of what damage they do already.
100 Human Warrior
14525
1) Feral having the same exact thing (it's not close, it's exactly what you're suggesting for Arms) is bad because Masteries are supposed to be unique to the spec. There is no case of a mastery being exactly duplicated.

2) There is no point to changing the current mastery because the mastery works already, has a fun interraction, and scales with crit and haste. (the bonus hit can crit itself). Changing something that works isn't something I really care to have done.

3) The comparison between bleed damage and disease damage is fair. Bleed damage is a relatively small part of our DPS, and going into cata it will only get smaller, because the bleeds don't gain damage from CS, while everything else does. Similarly, Diseases are only a small part of Unholy Damage. To get the same level of scaling out of bleed damage increase as you get from Crit, Mastery would need to be something ridiculous like 5-10% per point of Mastery, possibly more than that.

This is the same problem Unholy has where it needs a MUCH higher increase per point than it currently has or is likely to be given. The application method doesn't matter, the percentage of damage that comes from those effects is what matters for the purposes of scaling.
100 Human Warrior
14525
Faligan, a couple things:

1) Can you describe in any better detail what the old rolling ignite was like? I was under the impression ignite was a direct counterpart to deep wounds, so I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Though judging by context alone it sounds like you're taking a bleed (such as rend) and adding direct extra stacks to it via a proc. ie have colossus smash increase your rend to 2 stacks of rend or 3, or so on, to whatever cap is deemed appropriate, giving Arms a longer rampup on passive damage that will be meaningful in a boss fight, but pretty hard to get up on a PVP encounter. In which case I like it.

It also makes it so you have to refresh rend less often, if you have the CS hit refresh rend, which is nice given its short duration.

2) Arms AoE really doesn't need a lot of help given it's already really strong. Having sweeping strikes affect mastery procs if it doesn't already is a cool idea though, as is a glyph to make sweeping strikes affect more targets. I don't think a glyph to straight up make SoO into a whirlwind is really needed though. SoO hitting 5 targets with sweeping strike would be more than enough cleave.


That said I really really would love to see thunderclap as a viable ability for Arms to use rotationally in AoE. Even if it meant nerfing some of our other aoe tools to compensate. I don't like that Tclap is essentially prot only.
100 Human Warrior
14525
Faligan, a couple things:

1) Can you describe in any better detail what the old rolling ignite was like? I was under the impression ignite was a direct counterpart to deep wounds, so I'm not really sure what you mean by that.

Though judging by context alone it sounds like you're taking a bleed (such as rend) and adding direct extra stacks to it via a proc. ie have colossus smash increase your rend to 2 stacks of rend or 3, or so on, to whatever cap is deemed appropriate, giving Arms a longer rampup on passive damage that will be meaningful in a boss fight, but pretty hard to get up on a PVP encounter. In which case I like it.



Yea, thats basically the idea. CM powering up rend via SD or blood frenzy is an idea i like not only because of the proc but because it also a short cooldown ability we'll want to use early after getting back on the boss so we can kind of jump start that ramp up and we'll want to burn it as soon as the rend is up anyway for the increase in MS/OP damage.


I don't think stacking off blood frenzy is a great idea, but going off of Sudden Death powered CS procs (so as to not have it go up to 2 stacks instantly, making that rampup a bit longer) seems pretty good.

It doesn't solve the haste scaling issues (ie I'd still want to see the things I mentioned in my first post changed, to help with haste scaling), but it would make arms a bit more bearable since 8 times out of 10 rend would get refreshed by SD, and it increases the bleed damage in a way that doesn't affect PVP overmuch, which is a good thing given we need to avoid adding more burst potential in PVE. I like it.
85 Blood Elf Mage
13125
What you are describing isn't rolling ignites, it's a stacking dot.
Edited by Kolzi on 11/8/2010 3:14 AM PST
85 Orc Warrior
8290
First, I'd also like to ask for more benefit from haste. I currently have a lot of haste on my gear, and I'm not quite sure if I should reforge it into mastery or not. Perhaps there's a benefit to attach to the Arms tree where we gain 50% (or whatever may be balanced) more benefit from haste. Even with my ~16% haste in raid gear my swing timer is deadly slow and I still feel like I'm waiting for rage income. Also, I understand why it would be hard to make Rend benefit from haste because that would throw off the 6 second timer on TFB which would lose some of TFB's efficiency in a raid setting. This would mean Arms would want very specific haste percentages to have maximum TFB uptime. On the other hand, it would be nice if Blizzard could find a way to apply haste to Rend and I'm sure Deep Wounds would be a bit better with haste applied.

The bleed mastery idea, on the other hand, it poor at best. Masteries are supposed to be unique and while I understand making more passive bleed damage would reduce our PvP burst damage, that doesn't change the fact that bleeds can get out of control too. Ferals are a great example of this right now. I downed a PvE hero feral in a BG in 5 seconds, long enough for him to get his bleeds up. His bleeds alone took me from 35% to 0 because I didn't feel like blowing healing cd's to survive. There was still decent time left on the dots when I died. Just because it isn't burst doesn't mean it's not overpowered. I also don't like the ramp up bleed idea, I like that I can rend once and start ripping faces open at maximum efficiency.

I like where the Arms rotation itself is and I realize it's a hard spec to balance for PvE and PvP, but I have high hopes for us this expansion. I stayed arms faithfully through WotLK, going fury once as a test after heroic Ramaladni's BoC dropped for me. I still went back to arms even after seeing the much higher numbers. I love arms and after Blizzard said they really didn't want to leave us in the dust again I have great faith that they will hold up on their word. I suppose I wouldn't mind being more of a machine in bg's either. I'm useless without a pocket healer regardless, being OP just means I get a KB or two more before I die.



100 Human Warrior
14525
What you are describing isn't rolling ignites, it's a stacking dot.


That's what I thought, given that ignite to my understanding all rolls together a la deep wounds. But I figured some old implementation of ignite I wasn't aware of may have acted like he was describing.


Also, I understand why it would be hard to make Rend benefit from haste because that would throw off the 6 second timer on TFB which would lose some of TFB's efficiency in a raid setting. This would mean Arms would want very specific haste percentages to have maximum TFB uptime. On the other hand, it would be nice if Blizzard could find a way to apply haste to Rend and I'm sure Deep Wounds would be a bit better with haste applied.


Reducing the TFB ICD to 3.5s would make it so that at any level of haste you could actually get, even with bloodlust up, you'd get a TFB proc every 2 rend ticks. (so 0 haste you have a proc every 6 seconds like now, 10% haste a proc every 5.4 seconds, 20% haste a proc every 5 seconds. 20% plus heroism a proc every 3.8 seconds). So basically outside hero it seems like a relatively small gain that adds up to a couple extra OPs over time (at 10% haste it's basically 1 extra OP per minute, at 20% it's about 2), and during hero you suddenly have a lot more OPs you can use, which replaces more slams allowing you to HS more, which helps a LOT with the haste scaling problems arms has, and may even counterract the need to up base rage generation, or reduce how much it needs to be bumped.

I also don't like the ramp up bleed idea, I like that I can rend once and start ripping faces open at maximum efficiency.


You'd still rend once and be ripping faces at pretty much maximum efficiency, you'd just have less rend damage on the target. The main purpose would be to give us a little extra boost in PVE damage, without affecting PVP. It also loosens up the PVE rotation a bit since you have to apply rend manually less often (and if they gave rend a boost to 21s duration you'd never have to apply it manually), which again helps those PVE numbers, gaining an extra gcd usable on an actual damage attack every 15 seconds.

They could just straight up buff rend damage instead, but then we get into the problem you described ferals as having.
Edited by Secondwind on 11/8/2010 8:08 AM PST
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