Arms Warriors and PVE

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I totally agree, arms is my favorite warrior spec and it's lacking in pve but I don't really know if it should be better than fury I mean it is the only viable pvp and pve spec for warriors.
90 Human Warrior
12950
I totally agree, arms is my favorite warrior spec and it's lacking in pve but I don't really know if it should be better than fury I mean it is the only viable pvp and pve spec for warriors.


It doesn't need to be better than Fury. It should however be competitive, which is what we are asking for here.
89 Orc Warrior
7550
This may have already been touched on, but Arms really falls behind in burst phases.

The best example I can think of (since I haven't done much ICC) would be fighting Steelbreaker last on the Iron Council in Ulduar. You Bloodlust, and try to blow him up before your tanks all die.

Arms is probably the spec that gains the least from Bloodlust (or at least one of the specs), and we don't have a solid Death Wish-type cooldown. We've got Deadly Calm, but it's not exactly the same, and both Arms and Fury have Inner Rage.

I don't know if that's an issue for Cataclysm raids, but if you're falling behind on critical DPS stages, it's never a good thing.
90 Human Warrior
12950
This may have already been touched on, but Arms really falls behind in burst phases.

The best example I can think of (since I haven't done much ICC) would be fighting Steelbreaker last on the Iron Council in Ulduar. You Bloodlust, and try to blow him up before your tanks all die.

Arms is probably the spec that gains the least from Bloodlust (or at least one of the specs), and we don't have a solid Death Wish-type cooldown. We've got Deadly Calm, but it's not exactly the same, and both Arms and Fury have Inner Rage.

I don't know if that's an issue for Cataclysm raids, but if you're falling behind on critical DPS stages, it's never a good thing.


This is a solid point. Increasing the usefulness of haste to Arms would probably fix that wholly though. It is true that our cooldowns are all about efficiency, their power comes not from the immediate burst they grant, but by allowing us to stockpile rage so we may consistently maintain our rotation and add in more heroic strikes. While this is an engaging playstyle and interesting, it doesn't lend itself particularly well to burst phases.

Honestly I think just fixing haste scaling would probably fix this problem though. If the problem is lust gets popped and you're falling behind, if you scale better with haste you won't be falling behind. Not every spec has a flat "increase my damage" ability, yet few have this problem. And Arms has a relatively quick rampup, so target switching for a burst phase isn't a big problem. Especially not compared to something like an affliction lock or a rogue.
90 Human Warrior
12950
Not sure how they can make us scale much better with haste, just adding it to slam wouldn't be enough fundamentally because the belief is that fury will scale to a point where they will eventually be able to use inner rage and/or heroic strike much more liberally than arms. Arms with a currently tight rotation, even if it did have the incoming rage to do that wouldn't be able to match it.


My suggestions on the first page would help with haste scaling. In short it is:

-Make Rend/TFB scale with haste
-Bump up baseline rage gen/consumption
-Allow slam's cast time to scale with haste
-Allow usage of inner rage during deadly calm, but only charge the excess rage cost
-Allow usage of heroic strike during bladestorm

Each change individually is a really small nudge in the right direction, but all together helps bump up the scaling a lot. The last two changes are because Bladestorm and Deadly calm actually increase in potential wasted rage the higher your haste gets. Allowing you to bleed off some rage during those effects reduces the waste, and thus allows more haste scaling.
85 Human Warrior
BiS
8570
I'm also noticing that rage is becoming a large issue with this spec.

I can easily manage going Rend > Mortal Strike > Overpower, and than usually a Heroic Strike afterwards (Since slam isn't very good on live) However, there are times were I only have enough rage to suffice Rend > MS > OP and can't even consider pushing Heroic Strike or Rend without risk of rage starving myself.

I look at fury who's had a nice transition with rage generation and you only really risk rage starving yourself if you do something like press heroic strike right off the bat.

So how can we fix this problem? Once again it boils down to haste. Blizzard wants us to use haste but they're not really showing it to us. It takes too much haste to make a significant impact upon our DPS. If Blizzard would like us to use this stat and want us to actively get it to solve a few of these problems such as rage generation, than each point of haste needs to e worth more to the Arms Warrior.
90 Human Warrior
12950
Arms also has like 5 different skills that do the exact same thing.


What 5 skills? I'm confused here. Unless you're referring to 5 skills with similar levels of base damage. You have:

MS-Hits for weapon damage on a short cooldown, procs battle trance, wrecking crew, LttS, and reduces healing on the target.
OP-Hits for weapon damage, acts as a pseudo-proc so that it doesn't have to be used exactly on cooldown for optimal usage. Has high crit
Colossus Smash-Hits for weapon damage, on a medium cooldown, makes all damage ignore armor for 6 seconds
Slam-Hits for weapon damage with no cooldown, pauses swing for .5s per use.
Rend-Hits for weapon damage divided over 15 seconds, allows use of Overpower


The only common factor in any of those abilities is weapon damage, each has a unique effect tied to it, the closest to being totally bland is slam, which is a filler attack. Our other attacks are all even more different from these. So what 5 abilities are you talking about?
90 Human Warrior
12950
Arms also has like 5 different skills that do the exact same thing.


What 5 skills? I'm confused here. Unless you're referring to 5 skills with similar levels of base damage. You have:

MS-Hits for weapon damage on a short cooldown, procs battle trance, wrecking crew, LttS, and reduces healing on the target.
OP-Hits for weapon damage, acts as a pseudo-proc so that it doesn't have to be used exactly on cooldown for optimal usage. Has high crit
Colossus Smash-Hits for weapon damage, on a medium cooldown, makes all damage ignore armor for 6 seconds
Slam-Hits for weapon damage with no cooldown, pauses swing for .5s per use.
Rend-Hits for weapon damage divided over 15 seconds, allows use of Overpower


The only common factor in any of those abilities is weapon damage, each has a unique effect tied to it, the closest to being totally bland is slam, which is a filler attack. Our other attacks are all even more different from these. So what 5 abilities are you talking about?


Bunch of auto attacks with very slight difference.

they should make fireball have a 6 second cooldown, then put in fireball 2/3/4/5/6 with different stats, cooldowns and effects. That would be nice, now everyone has to randomly mash buttons that do the same thing.


What would differentiate them to you if not the bonus effects, priorities, cooldowns, and procs? Do you want some shiny animation for every attack you do? We're not paladins. We're warriors. Do you want an attack power based attack? I could get behind that, but realistically while you're playing you can't tell the difference.
85 Orc Warrior
9220
Since the old forums are going to be shut down soon, and I still have some things to say.

Ghostcrawler:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/post.html?forumId=13395581&topicId=27607276477&postId=276047438540&op=3&sid=1
Taking damage as a dps spec still happens though, especially in PvP. The options are to have damage provide almost trivial rage for dps warriors, or to assume that sometimes that is going to be a source of rage, and design around it. Otherwise dps warriors are always better off when they take damage, which is sort of a weird design.

You took Spiritual Attunement away from Ret and Holy Paladins because of this exact issue. "Designing around it" does not actually fix the core issue. Either you balance assuming DPS Warriors will be taking damage, in which case we'll be underpowered in any encounter where we don't get hit. Or you balance assuming we don't take damage, in which case we're overpowered in any encounter where we do get hit. In either case, the core problem (more rage from taking damage) is still there. And the mechanic encourages standing in the fire.

I think removing rage from damage taken in Battle and Berserker Stances is the best solution. That fixes the problem for the DPS specs without messing up tanking.
85 Night Elf Warrior
11840
i see a lot of people saying haste should scale with bleeds, but blizz doesnt want deep wound to climb to the top of the charts.

The prime problem is definately with slam. To keep slam unique, i was thinking that it should have a dynamic rage cost rather than a static one. One that is based on haste. Something like giving us 125% of the rage we would have generated during the 0.5 second cast of slam.


Also, slam is a fury ability, i would perfer to use the arms heroic strike ability =D.
Edited by Brathearon on 11/16/2010 8:54 AM PST
89 Orc Warrior
7550
i see a lot of people saying haste should scale with bleeds, but blizz doesnt want deep wound to climb to the top of the charts.


Who's asking for Deep Wounds to tick faster? DW already scales with haste, simply because you attack more often. We're talking about Rend.
90 Human Warrior
12950
i see a lot of people saying haste should scale with bleeds, but blizz doesnt want deep wound to climb to the top of the charts.


Deep Wounds could be an exception, much like (I believe) Ignite is for casters. That doesn't explain why Rend, Rip, Rake, Rupture, Garrote, and any other bleeds I'm forgetting can't scale.

The prime problem is definately with slam. To keep slam unique, i was thinking that it should have a dynamic rage cost rather than a static one. One that is based on haste. Something like giving us 125% of the rage we would have generated during the 0.5 second cast of slam.


A solution like that would be unique and something I could get behind, though you'd also have to take into account the white damage lost, and then you are getting into the realm of adding damage from haste (even if realistically you're only getting back damage you would have lost) which is a really weird area. Just making the cast bar scale with haste is a lot simpler and easier to balance.
85 Night Elf Warrior
11840
well trying to account for the white damage was why i put 125% instead of 100%, but i just threw that number in the air. I was thinking that during heroism, we might gain rage from slamming if i went too high. Although i guess that's what stuff like heroic strike and inner rage are for.

I was wondering how dps would be if slam was actually free of cost when i came up with the idea. I wasn't planning on suggesting it
87 Human Warrior
8150
The big issue I see for Arms Warriors is the lack of incentive to use Slam.

Right now, Slam isn't worth pressing the button. With rage generation where it's at, you're better off saving your rage and waiting for Heroic Strike to come off of cooldown. This ultimately leads to "slam your buttons when they light up" style gameplay. It's sad, I do far more damage randomly slamming down on three buttons than I do carefully timing and choosing out of four.

Arms needs to be able to maintain a rotation of Rend, OP, MS, and Slam on a test dummy and right now I don't think their rage generation can support that. And because Slam nerfs the hell out of the already weak haste, no amount of haste is going to solve that problem.

Two fixes:
1. Reduce Slam's rage cost to 5/10. Slam is the GCD filler move. It's supposed to be cheap. Slam shouldn't cost so much that you can't use a MS when it comes off cooldown.
2. Make Slam scale with Haste. Last I checked, Slam was still on the GCD so the cast timer is fairly pointless. It makes no difference to your rotation if it takes .5 seconds to swing or .2 seconds to swing, but it will keep it from gimping your rage generation and possibly make haste a more attractive warrior stat.
90 Human Warrior
12950
The more I think about it, a combination of solutions seems like the best option.

I really liked Brath's suggestion to make slam grant rage based on how much rage you lose from the pause in the swing timer. But after thinking about it for a bit, here's my spin on it: Do it in addition to letting the cast bar scale with haste.


Letting the cast bar is absolutely necessary, no matter how you spin it. It's needed to prevent slam from becoming worse as you get more haste. The only way around it is to either make Arms no longer use auto attacks at all (not an option), or make slam hit harder with more haste (which is a very backwards solution that doesn't fit what haste is supposed to do).

But if you have slam grant say 5 rage per use, it fits two purposes:

1) It reduces slam's effective rage cost. Right now with 0 haste its effective rage cost is 19.75. Having it grant 5 rage brings that cost back down to just shy of 15, right around where it should be. This helps it with being that gcd filler. Letting slam's cast time scale with haste means that rage cost will stay the same every time.

2) It smooths out arms rage gen some. It gives you more time between the swings that give you the big bursts, but gives you a little more rage to work with in the time between. Getting smaller bursts of rage intermixed with the big bursts makes the overall rotation easier to manage.




It doesn't solve all of Arms issues, but it is a good starting point.
Edited by Secondwind on 11/16/2010 10:01 AM PST
80 Human Warrior
4270
Sry if u disagree but I think our mastery needs to be bleed damage, at least its something new. Making deep wounds and rend do some super damage if you wish the stat that way.

The whole extra swing thing is kinda weak, if I wanted more hits per sec I would go fury plain and simple, maybe fury should have the arms talent as well. Regardless I am not too fond of the masteries, blizz will have to make them op in order for me to choose them, but making them OP would suck.


Bleed Damage would be a TERRIBLE mastery because haste would not be able to effect it, and haste is a major DPS stat. Haste is already not an ideal stat for warriors, this change your suggesting would make it completely useless.

Our current mastery for arms is very good, it compounds your crit chance first of all. Say your crit chance is 30%, but you have mastery giving you a 40% chance to gain an opportunity strike. Say you deal 40 attacks in a minute, with mastery you will actually deal 56 attacks, the 16 free attacks also have a 30% chance to crit so your gaining alot of damage. Specifically, damage that is effected by every stat (Str, AP, Haste, Crit, Expertise, Hit).

Arms warriors have one of the best masteries at the moment in my opinion, it is useful and effective in both pve and pvp and scales with every single DPS stat. That is alot more than any other class can say. Please don't advocate a terrible change like bleeds ever again.
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