[PvP] Offensive Spells of the Shaman

85 Dwarf Shaman
3445
It's my feeling shaman got the short end of the stick.

Smite is a 2.5 second cast with talents to reduce it to 2 seconds in the first tier of holy, with Holy Fire being reduced to 1.5 in the same talent. Smites as disc also grant you wings which makes penance and smite hit harder (and makes them virtually free).

Wrath is a 2.5 second baseline cast, but that becomes halved when in Tree of Life (and it's free with talents, able to get your starfire to become instant). They also have moonfire, and insect swarm; two instant dots.

Paladins get a chance to have an instant exorcism proc that costs no mana when they heal. They can also spam it for 70% less than normal. Spammable, low-cost, free damage.

Now, Shamans have:

  • Chain Lightning, a 2 second expensive spell that doesn't do much single target damage.

  • Lightning Bolt, a 2.5 second cast spell that gives mana back depending on the damage.

  • Earth Shock, an instant spell with a six second cooldown that procs Focus Insight.


  • Leaving out Lavaburst because it requires a lot of set up to hit less than Lightning Bolt.

    The issue here is about assisted damage dealing in PvP. Every healer in PvP, but the shaman, has a way to assist in DPS over the long run. As a shaman, however, I don't have that luxury.

    I have shocks.. and that's pretty much it. Lightning Bolt takes a very long time to get off for little damage done, and chain lightning not only poses the risk of breaking crowd control but it also costs a lot of mana, has a cooldown and does less total damage (and has less mana benefits) then Lightning Bolt.

    If a swap is called (in arena, or in battlegrounds) I don't have much I can do to participate in it. I can't holyfire, or exorcism, or moonfire (or go ToL and spam stupid quick free wraths that proc instant starfires).

    I can:

  • Chain Lightning

    • It costs a lot, has a cooldown, isn't spammable and risks breaking people out of crowd controls.

  • Earth Shock

    • It actually benefits me by reducing my heals.. but it's on a six second cooldown.

  • Lightning Bolt

    • The target will have died and be waiting for a res before I can actually get it off.


    Honestly, why not make Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning .5 seconds faster for all specs instead of just elemental? Not only does this help us become more of a threat damage wise in PvP (and actually attempt to be offensive) but it also allows Resto to become a legitimate leveling option. I don't see it as fair leaving shamans with sub-par offensive spells compared to other healers. :(

    Thoughts?
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    85 Tauren Priest
    5875
    I think Shamans and Priests are about even. Shocks have such a short cooldown, and I think it's odd you instantly discount Lava Burst as "requiring a lot of setup to hit less than Lightning Bolt." The only setup is the first spell you should be using when you want to deal damage (Flame Shock) and Lava Burst is your fastest casted nuke with the highest DPS thanks to the forced crit. It's also a little foolish to pretend that the 0.5 second difference between Smite and Lightning Bolt is going to make you too late to respond.

    For the purpose of comparison:
  • Shadow Word: Death and Holy Fire are both on longer cooldowns than Shocks and Lava Burst.

  • Moonfire does pitiful instant damage for Restoration Druids.

  • Holy Shock costs Paladins a heal.
  • And the other healers don't experience a net gain of mana or healing efficiency after using a nuke.

    Alas, different classes are different. =)
    Edited by Believe on 11/7/2010 7:36 PM PST
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    85 Dwarf Shaman
    3445
    Lava Burst is a 2 second cast time spell for all but elemental. It's identical to chain lightning, except it requires you to get a flame shock on the target and the critical that happens afterword isn't worth it because you could get off a Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning and nearly double the damage it would do compared to FS>LvB.

    I don't know, I just think a 2.0 second Lightning Bolt would make things even. It just feels so long and clunky. I have a disc as well, and shamans definitely feel weak in the offensive ability department. :(

    In regards to the Smite vs Lightning Bolt, you can easily speed up smites with Power Infusion and Shield (and if you're going offensive, you usually do this :p). For every two smites you get off, I only get off one lightning bolt and am just getting through my second :(
    Edited by Evolute on 11/7/2010 7:41 PM PST
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    100 Human Paladin
    5765
    So this is where you ran off to.

    Offensive effects are counter balanced. I've had my fair share at bemoaning about purge and shear. Tell you what, I'll trade you denouncement for that... pls. That said, I don't really see a problem with .5 secs being shaved off LB and CL cast times.

    btw I think you're mixing up wrath and starfire in your resto druid example.

    EDIT: a 2 sec LB would actually make quite a bit of sense considering TC.
    Edited by Fridays on 11/7/2010 7:45 PM PST
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    85 Dwarf Shaman
    3445
    I think the talent is free-wraths, proc-instant-starfires.

    And yeah, thats my point; they obviously want us to cast Lightning Bolt (more so in PvE during lulls in damage, but it effects PvP too) and right now the cast time is so long that you don't get to use it much at all.
    Reply Quote
    100 Human Paladin
    5765
    Ya but wraths are 2 sec baseline iirc.

    Just to rub salt in the wound.
    Reply Quote
    85 Dwarf Shaman
    3445
    I thought it was 2.5 :\
    Reply Quote
    85 Tauren Priest
    5875
    No friends, Wrath is still 2.5.
    Reply Quote
    100 Human Paladin
    5765
    No friends, Wrath is still 2.5.


    Still isn't quite the right word, but I was wrong.

    Wrath is 2.5 baseline now, however it was 2 sec baseline in wrath. I haven't touched my druid since the patch dropped so I was rusty.

    http://www.wowwiki.com/Wrath = 2 sec cast

    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=5176 = 2.5 sec cast
    Reply Quote
    85 Dwarf Shaman
    3445
    The first tier of balance has a cast time reduction talent, though: Shamans are not even offered the choice.
    Reply Quote
    85 Draenei Shaman
    6600
    The first tier of balance has a cast time reduction talent, though: Shamans are not even offered the choice.

    Instead we get offensive dispel and the best interrupt in the game. Different classes are different, and shaman offense is pretty amazing. You're clearly very good at arena, I'm sure you appreciate the value of Purge. It's not dps, per se, on a swap, but it's very useful.

    At best they should move the cast time reduction to an accessible elemental tier. Or else they'd have to reduce all healers offensive spells to be fair. (But then we'd have to give up instant ghost wolf... why isn't that baseline yet?)

    ToL can't actually use the instant Starfire without losing their ToL cooldown. So it's not just shaman with wonky talents.
    Edited by Whiskeysour on 11/8/2010 2:54 PM PST
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    100 Draenei Shaman
    16170
    I posted this in the other forums but I'll add it here:

    Just for comparison, dps of healers on a target dummy (i coppied one of each on beta).

    Druid: 4200 dps


    Disc:

    Shadowfiend does 3500 by iteself
    Holy fire+smite+dots=6200 dps
    Mind spike+mind blast=4000 dps

    Pally: ~4600 spamming exorcism, could get higher using inquisition (So it would be higher soloing, but 4600 is for pvp.)

    shammy: 2500 without totems, 3000 with totems




    Level 85 mobs have like 70k HP, good luck soloing when it takes 30 seconds per mob (take ~8-10 as a dps)


    Just to add as well, exorcism hits ~10% harder than lightning bolt, but takes 1 second less to cast. I'd like to be able to solo at 85 as resto if I needed to.
    Reply Quote
    85 Dwarf Shaman
    3445
    Instead we get offensive dispel and the best interrupt in the game. Different classes are different, and shaman offense is pretty amazing. You're clearly very good at arena, I'm sure you appreciate the value of Purge. It's not dps, per se, on a swap, but it's very useful.

    I posted this in the other thread, but I'll summarize;

    I didn't include Shocks or Purges, because while extremely helpful (see RLS and stuff) other healers have fear and cyclone and HOJ and Aura Mastery to 'help'. The tools we have itself isn't a problem; the damage tools we have are, however.
    Reply Quote
    85 Tauren Priest
    5875
    The tools we have itself isn't a problem; the damage tools we have are, however.

    The premise of your post can be boiled down to "The target will have died and be waiting for a res before I can actually get [Lightning Bolt] off."

    PvP doesn't move that fast. Not even today, and certainly not in Cataclysm.
    Edited by Believe on 11/8/2010 7:47 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    85 Dwarf Shaman
    3445
    It's a statement that holds true; the cast time of our offensive spells is too long. No matter how I word it (and I tried to be funny there), it's how it is.
    Edited by Evolute on 11/8/2010 8:23 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    85 Goblin Shaman
    2665
    I think Shamans and Priests are about even.


    wow.

    what an absurd statement.

    do you even test anything you claim?

    Priests do crazy amounts of DPS - go look @ the post above that shows dummy stats.

    Resto shaman DPS is pretty week. So is pally. It sucks to have to take 30-45s to kill a single mob.
    Reply Quote
    100 Night Elf Priest
    17385
    This is not a fair comparison.

    You cannot just look at damage-done in a vacuum when Resto Shamans also bring Hex, Grounding Totem, Wind Shear, Heroism and other things.

    Casting Heroism on 5 pure DPS in a Rated BG more than makes up for the lack of damage a Resto Shaman brings. Consider it prorated damage.
    Reply Quote
    85 Goblin Shaman
    2665
    This is not a fair comparison.

    You cannot just look at damage-done in a vacuum when Resto Shamans also bring Hex, Grounding Totem, Wind Shear, Heroism and other things.

    Casting Heroism on 5 pure DPS in a Rated BG more than makes up for the lack of damage a Resto Shaman brings. Consider it prorated damage.


    DISCLAIMER: i know this thread is about PvP


    That being said, what about questing/soloing/dailes? you CAN, and sometimes HAVE TO, look at healer's dps spells in a vacuum.
    Reply Quote
    100 Draenei Shaman
    16170
    This is not a fair comparison.

    You cannot just look at damage-done in a vacuum when Resto Shamans also bring Hex, Grounding Totem, Wind Shear, Heroism and other things.

    Casting Heroism on 5 pure DPS in a Rated BG more than makes up for the lack of damage a Resto Shaman brings. Consider it prorated damage.


    If you start adding non-damage things to the comparison, it gets muddy fast. You have to look at pallies bringing freedom (more uptime=more damage), cyclone and fears (and everyting else).

    The damage healers can do is something that should be at least somewhat close. This is not just a PvP issue, but one that matters while soloing as well. At 85, my resto shaman (non-premade, the one I leveled) took 1 minute to kill a basic level 85 mob and would have died without healing and used half its mana pool. That is just wrong. I also checked and it took the same amount of time (1 minute) to MELEE down the same mob as elemental.


    (It took 12 seconds to kill casting as elemental)
    Edited by Caryna on 11/11/2010 11:23 AM PST
    Reply Quote
    100 Night Elf Priest
    17385
    Okay. I will give you 1 minute to kill a single mob is a bit absurd; but again you titled explicitly so this thread for PvP.

    Things in PvP cannot be looked at in a vacuum, and you're absolutely right there are other things to be considered. But you can't ignore those either.
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