Will Enchantments overtake Runeforging?

85 Blood Elf Hunter
8190
I have been reading over the new enchantments and i'm curious to wonder if Enchanting will not soon overtake Runeforging as Death Knight's weapon enchant of choice.

Runeforging is certainly dull and extremely passive. They have no interaction with the class at all and there is really only 3 choices when it comes to Runeforging. I was extremely surprised to see no new talents to tie in runeforging with the talent revamp as well.

Gargoyle - Tanking
Fallen Crusader - Unholy, 2h Frost, DW Frost (Main)
Razorice - DW Frost (Offhand)

The rest of the runeforges fell too short of any realistic goal of being used even though they had good potential.

While 2handed classes may still rely on Fallen Crusader i am beginning to wonder if DW Frost might not have some real options in their weapon enchants.

Has anyone done any theorycrafting on this?

The ones that interest me the most are:

Weapon Avalanche Permanently enchant a weapon to often deal 463 to 537 Nature damage to an enemy struck by your melee attacks.

Weapon Elemental Slayer Permanently enchant a melee weapon to sometimes disrupt elementals when struck by your melee attacks, dealing 929 - 1270 Arcane damage and silencing them for 5 sec.

Weapon Hurricane Permanently enchant a melee weapon to sometimes increase haste rating by 450 for 12 sec when casting spells or dealing melee damage.

Weapon Landslide Permanently enchant a weapon to sometimes increase attack power by 1000 for 12 sec when striking in melee.
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85 Human Death Knight
8110
Doubtful considering that all the useful runeforges scale with your stats. Though, regular enchants might be slightly better before you've done any gearing up.
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75 Dwarf Hunter
1360
Question for Death Knights - If Blizzard removed Runforging tomorrow would you be happy or unhappy?

I know it saves a few hundred gold in mats which is neat but my question is really about the loss of the enchant its self rather than the fringe benefits.

Do you want to see it gone, buffed, or changed at its very core?
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100 Worgen Death Knight
9385
I don't see how a 15% strength bonus with very high uptime is going to be outweighed by any of the other enchants, which mostly boost secondary stats. Strength is by far superior to all the secondary stats in Cataclysm.

Unholy DKs, don't get used to the mad parity of Strength and Haste in 4.0: it's not going to last.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
9775
The minimum amount of strength you'd need for fallen crusader to perform at parity to 1000 AP at level 85 is roughly 3334, not considering raid buffs. I don't think it will be any contest.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
Runeforges aren't bad, I just sometimes wish they had more cohesion with our respective specs or their abilities rather than being so generic.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10155
The minimum amount of strength you'd need for fallen crusader to perform at parity to 1000 AP at level 85 is roughly 3334, not considering raid buffs. I don't think it will be any contest.


Not sure if anyone has done any testing on the up time for both at level 85. If Fallen Crusader has a higher up time than Landslide at 85, the amount of strength needed would end up being less than 3334 for it to pull ahead. If it has a lower up time, than more strength would be needed to make Landslide inferior.

I'm not entirely sure anyone has gotten around to testing out procs at 85 yet, so it's hard to say how all the various enchants will compare to one another. I'm skeptical that anything will beat runeforges for DKs though, at least once they get enough Tier 11 gear. Strength is an excellent stat for DPs DKS and Fallen Crusader scales with it.
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100 Tauren Shaman
13490
The real question is: do you get new Runeforging recipes in the next 5 levels?

I sure hope so.
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85 Troll Death Knight
8085
The real question is: do you get new Runeforging recipes in the next 5 levels?

I sure hope so.

Runeforge of the !!#!!in' Eye Patch

Lowers hit rating by 50%, but gives you a !!#!!in' eye patch.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
I'm actually wondering how well Hurricane might perform for DKs, seeing as how Haste now directly affects our primary resource pool, and thus how often we'll be able to attack as well as how much RP generation we will have.

Right now Haste is already outperforming crit chance, within reason. 450 Haste for 12 seconds would be pretty crazy for Rune regen assuming the DK is already stacking Haste. I haven't timed myself lately, but at around ~500 Haste I'm down to less than 7s per rune, I believe. So with another amount close to that, that'd possibly be like 4s per rune for 12s whenever it procs; which is also not counting increases to Haste that I'll be able to get from new gear/reforging/gemming/enchanting. Then again, we might already be able to get Haste at efficient levels without the enchant, not sure.

I'm not sure how this will translate in a PvE environment, but for Unholy PvP it may very well outperform any Strength or AP buff, especially since the Haste enchant also procs off spells (reference DC, CoI).

The real question is: do you get new Runeforging recipes in the next 5 levels?

I sure hope so.


Not likely, not with our luck.
Edited by Sinseer on 11/7/2010 12:31 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13225
The uptime on FC is the same at 85 as it is at 80 but thats pretty much irrelevant. FC will never be beaten by a traditional enchant. The value of Strength is simply too high compared to other stats.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
13225
The real question is: do you get new Runeforging recipes in the next 5 levels?

I sure hope so.


No. But it would be a very difficult task to design one that's even on the same level as FC.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
8190
The problem i have with runeforgeing is there is no interaction with the class or the mechanics.

Your pretty much stuck with FC forever. There is Zero choice in matter. So if you have zero choice in your dps runeforging why even offer one? At this point you might as well make runeforging work no differently then Paladin Seals or Shaman Weapon Enhancements.

At least with Paladins and Shamans you can change depending on the situation.

Death Knights require a summon or multiple weapons.

At the very least Runeforging shouldn't require Ebon Hold anymore.

Perhaps too FC is simply too powerful to ever offer any other choice to DKs.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
You know, I never understood why people don't pick cinderglacier when it provides such wonderful burst in PVP, while proccing quite often. +20% damage on frost strike/howling blast is nothing to scoff at.
Edited by Stoutfist on 11/7/2010 5:44 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
8190
Yea currently it is the suggested Enchant for PvP and AoE.

Edit: For DW Frost, sorry meant to clarify there. From what i read for DW Frost it's

PvE: Single Target FC / RI
PvE: AoE FC / CG
PvP: FC / CG
Edited by Tempis on 11/7/2010 5:47 PM PST
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85 Dwarf Paladin
5385
Anyway, in order to scale properly, Runeforging needs to use percentage values instead of flat values, which is what it does now. Thing is, Fallen Crusader used to be +30% strength. They nerfed it way too much imho.

You also have to take into account that runeforging is free, which is another big advantage it provides to DKs.
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85 Undead Death Knight
6110
You know, I never understood why people don't pick cinderglacier when it provides such wonderful burst in PVP, while proccing quite often. +20% damage on frost strike/howling blast is nothing to scoff at.


That's just it though. Cinderglacier is great for Frost spec, and rightfully so. But where's that kind of synergy with runeforging and Blood spec, or Unholy spec? It doesn't really exist. Unholy gets the generic FC, and Blood gets the generic SSG. These aren't bad runeforges, but they don't have the synergy that CG does with Frost.

I'd just like there to be spec-specific kinds of runeforge options. For Unholy, for instance, CG could essentially be replicated to do the same thing with Shadow damage for our DCs.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
13125
You know, I never understood why people don't pick cinderglacier when it provides such wonderful burst in PVP, while proccing quite often. +20% damage on frost strike/howling blast is nothing to scoff at.


It got some use (especially from frost dks) in season 6 when death knights had individually hard-hitting spells instead of a ton of white damage and dots. The low proc rate means it's not much good for any sort of sustained damage which is where unholy did well. It would probably be pretty good for frost again now, I haven't been playing the DK much since patch though.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5615
I like FC and the premis of runeforging in general I just wish that there were more compelling choices that were a bit hard to sim out the dps difference for pve and pvp in all of our roles.

FC is going to outscale everyone of those enchants for pve dps and pvp by a very large margin. You get 5k+ strength in 85 blues and people were already saying at anything over 3500 str FC outscales landslide (and this is not even counting the heal).

Right now it's basically 1 for tanks, FC for dps and most pvp, perhaps cinderglacier for frost pvp to up burst a bit, and spellshattering on an extra weapon for dueling casters.
It would just be nice to have a few more options, and not by nerfing FC until it's not competetive, but by reworking lesser used runeforges or adding new ones that could be competetive with FC but not unilaterallly stronger than it.

Runeforging right now feels like pre 4.0 glyphs a bunch of stuff you'd like to use but never will because the oppurtunity cost of using anything BUT FC is too great. Fallen Crusader feels like it should be a prime glyph (runeforge) while spellshattering, swordshattering, razorice, cinderglacier all feel like major glyphs not prime ones.

It would be hillarious to see Prime Major and Minor Runeforges and DK's allowed to use one of each. FC would still be the go to prime one for dps and pvp, but some other runeforges would become usable then and you'd see more customization just like major glyphs in post 4.0.
Edited by Shunyata on 11/8/2010 1:07 PM PST
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80 Troll Warrior
3935
Question for Death Knights - If Blizzard removed Runforging tomorrow would you be happy or unhappy?


Unhappy. It's just a couple hundred G, but it's still gold saved and I also like not needing anything more than a trip to Acherus to start using a weapon; rather than AH->Enchanter.

'Sides, Crusader is still the most stylish melee enchant.
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