Disc Priests fixable with one tweak

80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
One of my (and community's) primary concerns with the Disc Priest spec relates to raid viability given intense healing demands.

When healing gets nuts (meaning party damage - tanks taking lots of spike / peak dmg is trivial if your hps throughput is respectable) you end up throwing heals / shields frantically trying to keep people / hope alive. In this scenario maintaining any of the disc buffs that make the spec remotely desirable is going to be next to impossible.

My suggestion :

Allow Penance to ad a stack of Evangelism (per tick or per cast depending on how Archangel ends up) whether cast as a heal or a damage spell.

This allows healers to focus on healing during intense healing phases while being able to refresh their disc buffs. Aside from the atonement range and dilution of atonement heals by pets, I think this would solve alot of the issues players are having with Disc.

The cooldown of Penance ensures that it cant be over used and still needs to be weaved intelligently even when thrown as a heal. Being able to get mana return from a healing ability instead of being locked in to damaging a target in order to pop Archangel will help immensely in intense healing situations.

Interested to hear what Priests think about the suggestion, esp. those trying Disc on Beta.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
If Penance could stack Evangelism, why would you spec Atonement? (Unless it was through Atonement that you got it)
Also, would it stack only if you used penance to deal damage? Only to heal? Both? Honestly, the situation to which you're referring is the situation in which I'd be using Archangel for the increased healing, and possibly power infusion (if I hadn't already given it to a mage or shaman).
If you really need to heal a lot of people quickly, pop wings and hit PoH a few times, maybe throw down a barrier. You've already got the tools to deal with the situation, and Penance has enough of a "golden hammer" thing going for it already.
Edit: I like the way you implied that disc is broken with the thread title while fishing for buffs, when this really just sounds like a l2p problem.
Edited by Niraada on 11/8/2010 12:56 PM PST
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
to answer your questions :
Atonement makes your smites heal. That's pretty cool regardless of its Evangelism procs. Penance has a cooldown, so you'll be using both in light healing situations until serious healing is needed. I see no reason that a penance upgrade decreases the usefulness of Atonement.
Penance would add Evangelism in both cases (dps/hps). Its essential that a heal add evangelism so that we can get the benefits of Archangel during intense healing when we cant spend time targeting a baddie and smiting.
As to the rest of your points, I'm pretty sure we're on the same page. Like you said, the situation I refer to is where you would -want- to use Archangel for the increased healing. The problem is you wont be able to because you wont be able to keep your smites going to put evangelism up to get Archangel.
UNLESS... you could weave an actual heal in to your intense healing rotation that adds a stack. Maybe something like.. penance?
Edit : I like the L2P comment from someone who's feedback lacks consideration beyond 5man heroics. Go read EJ, Healer or Priest forums if you want to know the general consensus of the state of Disc spec. Your choice to debate an opinion [brokenness of disc] makes you more troll than forum contributor.
Good day sir.
Edited by Servo on 11/8/2010 1:32 PM PST
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
Problem statement :

Best parts of disc spec (Evangelism -> Archangel buff) are not available to priest during heavy healing situations when they need them most.

proposed solution :

Change Penance to add a stack of Evangelism so that priests can access Archangel during prolonged periods of intense healing.

* suggest 1 stack of Evangelism per cast, OR 1 stack per 2 ticks.

Hopefully the problem statement is less emotionally charged than the title and wont result in the undue mental anguish of squishy forum readers and squishy blues. :P
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
I'm sorry you feel that I'm trolling you because I don't agree with your opinion, but what you were describing sounded a lot like "It's hard to get Evangelism up when what spells I'm casting actually matter", which is why it sounds like a l2p problem.

Yes, Evangelism goes away when you hit Archangel, but the primary ability it benefits is smite. If you're not smiting at the moment, you don't need evangelism, and if you are smiting, you'll have it. I'm trying, I really am, to understand why you think this is a problem. It makes sense, and no, I'm not going to agree with you simply because a bunch of other people do. I haven't felt it was an issue as disc, and none of the disc priests I regularly heal with have felt it was an issue either.

If you could stack Evangelism using Penance, there's no reason to use smite. If there's no reason to use smite, there's no reason to have Atonement, since through normal use of Penance, you'd always have 5 stacks of Evangelism up before Archangel's cooldown was up, and in case you're forgetting, Evangelism only buffs damage. If you're not using Smite to heal, there's no reason you need it. If you're mad that Smite doesn't stay buffed when you hit Archangel, suck it up. If you're actually using smite, Evangelism will be back up shortly.

You say my feedback lacks consideration beyond 5 man heroics, which I have to disagree with as well. I'm considering this from the perspective of someone who is regularly healing 25 man heroics, and I still can't see the validity of your argument.

If you can't heal without buffed smites when you aren't smiting, or handle using Penance without its mana cost being reduced, and think those things are making you unable to handle intense healing situations; if you can't find the time to fit in a few smites before Archangel's cooldown is up, especially when most periods of burst damage don't last anywhere near as long as that cooldown, then I'm sorry, but that's a l2p problem. Other disc priests are managing quite well.
Edited by Niraada on 11/8/2010 2:12 PM PST
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
OK, trying to be patient here. Its a relatively complex mechanic and I can see where the misunderstanding is.

Evangelism reduces the casting cost of Smite and increases the damage done and stacks up to five times.
Archangel converts stacks of Evangelism to +3% healing, +3% (live) mana return (1% beta.)

The reason you want Penance to add a stack Evangelism has nothing to do with reducing your smite cost, or any change to reduce the cost of Penance.

The reason you want Penance to add a stack of Evangelism is so that you can pop Archangel for the healing buff and mana return. Since you wont smite or dps while healing is intense, you wont be able to keep Archangel up unless you have a heal which stacks Evangelism.

Your L2P sentiments while failing to understand a simple change request or the mechanics your discussing are kindof ironic. If you just discussed the topic you wouldnt look nearly as silly now.
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80 Human Mage
8480
Your misuse of irony to talk down to someone is ironic. Your failure to comprehend or respect a counter-argument is also amazing. Your use of the WoW forums as an informed source is simply the best. People postulate that not healing repeat fire-standers means you like killing blind people here. You know that right?

I'm going to repeat Niraada's argument, slowly. Situations in which the level of burst healing needed require the Archangel buff do not last longer then the cooldown on Archangel. If you want to be able to use Archangel on cooldown regardless of what is going on in the raid, then tough. That's not how it has been designed to be used. If you need Archangel to simply keep up with high (not burst) damage, then you need to learn to play. As has been stated.
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It feels like the difference between what the two of you are discussing is "Why/how long am I healing intensely?"

E.g., on "Why": Is this just a high damage fight? Did another healer die? Is it a frenzy or some kind of raid-wide burst damage?

Relatedly, "How long?": Is this just a moment? Is this an entire fight?

Servo seems to be talking about longer-duration high-intensity fights. In these fights, if you're in an LK-style every-GCD-matters panic, you may not have time to cast smite often enough to stack Evangelism, so you won't be able to use your wings.

Niraada seems to be talking about shorter pulses. In these fights, the 18 seconds wings is up will help you through the high-intensity burst, then when it calms down again you can find gaps to re-stack Evangelism.

Is my characterization accurate?

Also: Too much ego chatter. :P
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
So you don't want to smite to gain Archangel, which is in agreement with what I first said, in that allowing Penance to stack Evangelism would make Atonement worthless, but you said that wouldn't be the case. I understand wanting to pop archangel for the healing buff, I don't understand why you would say
Atonement makes your smites heal. That's pretty cool regardless of its Evangelism procs. Penance has a cooldown, so you'll be using both in light healing situations until serious healing is needed. I see no reason that a penance upgrade decreases the usefulness of Atonement.

and then later say
The reason you want Penance to add a stack of Evangelism is so that you can pop Archangel for the healing buff and mana return.

while totally missing how this would devalue Atonement.

What you're asking is for a way to get around a core mechanic of a spec, claiming you can't do it when healing is intense, so you want it to work with Penance instead, which brings us back to my Golden Hammer argument. You want to use Penance in every situation. You don't want to smite in a situation where there's a lot of damage going out, but you also want to have Archangel available to you regardless of whether you play to the Evangelism mechanic or not. You have other things you can use when healing demands are intense. You have Power Infusion, you have Pain Suppression, you have Inner Focus, you have Power Word: Barrier, you have Divine Hymn, you have Hymn of Hope, and yet you argue that because you have to smite in order to gain evangelism to use Archangel, you can't keep up?

I'm sorry that you're having trouble managing Evangelism, perhaps using a ToT smite macro would help you.

Edit: Caera, if someone can't manage a fight without having maximum uptime of one cooldown, they probably need to look elsewhere for the problem.
Edited by Niraada on 11/8/2010 2:56 PM PST
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85 Human Priest
10900
People postulate that not healing repeat fire-standers means you like killing blind people here.


I'll never forget that thread.
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[...]Edit: Caera, if someone can't manage a fight without having maximum uptime of one cooldown, they probably need to look elsewhere for the problem.
I wasn't trying to comment on the arguments at all, just to figure out if everyone's on the same page. : )
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Oh, no Caera. I was trying to point out what it is that I've been trying to get across to him. Sorry, I should have phrased that better.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
Your characterization is accurate.

I dont discount that both situations occur (short and long duration intense healing.)

I suggest that most of the goodness of the Disc spec is put towards situations which are less difficult already, which is a shame, and why I recommend the change.

Situations with tons of frenetic healing would actually benefit from the buff and mana regen, whereas your light healing rotations while you're actually able to keep Evangelism / Archangel rolling do not.

Also : I'll point out that it wasnt until the mage showed up that the point was even made that Archangel would last through your whole intense healing period. Naraada ninja edited their to look less clueless after the fact.

There are times when Archangel lasts long enough, and when it doesnt, its not a matter of skill that the timer on Archangel ran out. Naraada, srsly, act right or gtfo. Ninja edit? rly?
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80 Human Mage
8480

Change Penance to add a stack of Evangelism so that priests can access Archangel during prolonged periods of intense healing.


Did she also ninja-edit your own comment?
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I don't know I don't really have any problem with heavy raid damage.. i can mitigate damage and heal, we also have some awesome druids to back me up. I usually use Evangelism/Archangel when I'm tank healing though, not as much when raid healing.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Calling ninja edit... when the edit occurred before his post? Rly?

If Archangel doesn't last long enough, find a way to manage. How many Golden Hammers does it take to get the boss down?
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
Niraada if you're still confused about the change request Im not sure how much more I can help you.

Now that you've asked your cadre of.... really really high quality questions, let me ask some :

How does Penance adding a stack of Evangelism devalue Atonement?

How does balancing around the possibility of higher / more appropriate uptime of Archangel equate to "another golden hammer"?

How do you and the mage have identical reading comprehension problems?
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80 Human Mage
8480
I'm struggling here. Are you just trolling, or do you honestly not understand how your questions have been answered by people who don't have to resort to ad hominem to keep their argument going?
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1 Human Priest
0
Do you really think 15% extra healing will save disc? That's not even close to how much help they need.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
@ Galv / Niraada
You two are the only ones who think Penance adding evangelism will devalue atonement, so ya, you're going to have to answer that one.

How does Penance adding a stack of Evangelism devalue Atonement?

You said it, now back it up.

@ Feedback
I think having 15% healing buff and mana return when we're actually doing our critical healing would be a big step in the right direction for the spec. I dont know if it would solve all of Disc's problems but I think its a big start and I think it could be tuned from there.

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