Disc Priests fixable with one tweak

80 Human Mage
8480
I've never said I think Penance/Evangelism would devalue Atonement (I will now though, because it does). Maybe less time trying to lump anyone that disagrees you together and more time working on those reading comprehension skills you talked about. Furthermore, you're the only one that has stated they don't think Atonement will be devalued with your proposed change. Your assumption anyone not disagreeing with you is agreeing is as arrogant as it is foolish.

It's been answered before, but I guess I can do it again just because you're such a great guy. Penance would devalue Atonement because it removes the opportunity cost. There is intended to be a tradeoff: fun dps times and a useful cooldown (Archangel) when you need it, so long as you can afford to put it up. If you can always afford to put it up, then it ceases to be a meaningful decision and simply becomes something you have whenever you want. At which point, why tie it to anything at all? Simply make it a separate cooldown you can press at will.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, your entire argument is predicated on the notion that Disc is unable to perform. You have not demonstrated this in any way, shape, or form beyond simply stating it. Your opinion is not fact, and there is a quite significant portion of the community that disagrees with your assessment (including Blizzard themselves), making this a false premise.

So, I guess my question for you is: are you actually going to address the downsides to your proposal, or continue to go in circles with strawmans, moving goalposts, and general rejection of reality?
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85 Worgen Priest
5765
Ok so I haven't really tested anything yet because I honestly don't see the point in playing wrath anymore. Also I think you people should take into consideration that the current state of the game is tailored towards Cataclysm not Fail of the Lich King. But if during a healing intensive fight where you don't really have the time to smite what is the point of Evangelism/Archangel? As I said I haven't tested anything so, do you have the time to smite during an LK fight? What's so wrong about giving one evangelism stack to a full cast of Penance? Penance has a pretty long cool down so you'd be pretty dumb if you were to just use Penance with the mindset that: Penance gives evangelism so I won't smite. I don't see how this change would make atonement useless.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
I already explained how having Penance stack evangelism would devalue Atonement, perhaps you should have read, Servo.

You want to turn Penance into a Golden Hammer; the right tool for the job no matter the situation. If Penance granted Evangelism, you'd have no reason to spec Atonement, because there would be no reason to cast Smite, because Penance would already give Evangelism. You mentioned that Penance has a cooldown, which I also stated was totally irrelevant because you can still hit Penance 5 times before the cooldown of Archangel resets.

What you're asking for is a change that makes the spec brainless by letting you sidestep a core mechanic, claiming it's too hard, when, if you'll note my previous posts, and Galv's, this is a l2p issue for you, and not a problem with the spec.
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85 Worgen Priest
5765
I'm not Servo but ok I see where you're coming from I guess. Although why wouldn't you use smite and penance to get stacks of evangelism up? Sure you could penance 5 times before the cooldown but that would take a long time. Why not use smite and penance together in order to stack evangelism faster? Thus doing more damage and saving more mana.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Because there would be no need to Smite. The damage done by Disc priests in a PvE scenario, while nice, is negligible. How long it takes to get 5 stacks as long as its shorter than the cooldown of Archangel is irrelevant as well, because there's no bonus points for time left over. Finally, Penance is always used on cooldown, turning Archangel/Evangelism into a brainless mechanic which is what he's after.

He's asking for a change that means he can't make a mistake. He wants that change because as was mentioned earlier, the problems he's having are l2p issues. Disc doesn't need 2 Golden Hammers to be viable. It's already viable. All these proposed changes do is give into his desire to bubble spam and Penance no matter what happens. Problem exists between chair and keyboard.
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85 Worgen Priest
5765
I honestly think disc is fine and am psyched they added this feature. I'm gonna arena until my fingers bleed. But all I'm saying is giving Penance one measly evangelism proc would not devalue Atonement. Because the cd on Penance is 10 seconds and the cd on Archangel is 30. Therefore I'd only get 3 stacks of Evangelism. Although you stated this is irrelevant I think you're wrong. If I put 2/2 in "Train of thought" each smite cast decreases the cooldown on my Penance by .5 seconds. So if I did Penance, smite X2, Penance, smite. That might give me a pretty nice set up for Archangel.
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Ah crap, I forgot they cut the cooldown on Archangel to 30 seconds from 60, though with that, there's even less reason someone should be complaining they can't keep it up often enough. If someone can't manage without maximum uptime of a cooldown like that, chances are they're out of their depth, especially when they have so many other emergency tools.
Edited by Niraada on 11/8/2010 10:28 PM PST
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85 Worgen Priest
5765
Yeah I suppose you're right. I'm interested in seeing how this turns out though. I'd rather not learn holy for Cata pve. Plus I think the Archangel wings look cool =P
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100 Human Priest
9210
Do you really think 15% extra healing will save disc? That's not even close to how much help they need.


We're OP right now in healing as it is...went from bottom of the meters to the top overnight. I've yet to run out of mana, heavy healing situations have never been an issue...it's all about your awareness in that moment you need it most.
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1 Human Priest
0
Do you really think 15% extra healing will save disc? That's not even close to how much help they need.


We're OP right now in healing as it is...went from bottom of the meters to the top overnight. I've yet to run out of mana, heavy healing situations have never been an issue...it's all about your awareness in that moment you need it most.


We are talking about in Cataclysm, where Disc priests in raids are being described as "not even a healer" by guilds such as Premonition.
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100 Human Priest
9210

We are talking about in Cataclysm, where Disc priests in raids are being described as "not even a healer" by guilds such as Premonition.


ah, I see. I've looked at some Disc priests healing stats and builds at lvl 85 on the current Beta, and I've noticed a few of them doing really well, but I guess I can understand the reasoning behind it, we're going back to being mainly damage reduction, less towards healing
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85 Worgen Priest
5765

We are talking about in Cataclysm, where Disc priests in raids are being described as "not even a healer" by guilds such as Premonition.


ah, I see. I've looked at some Disc priests healing stats and builds at lvl 85 on the current Beta, and I've noticed a few of them doing really well, but I guess I can understand the reasoning behind it, we're going back to being mainly damage reduction, less towards healing


But we're still going to be wanted for raids right? We aren't going to be that fat smelly kid that always gets picked last for dodgeball in HS phys ed, right?
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100 Human Paladin
6070
I thought this thread was gonna be about changing Atonement's 8 yrd limit to start on the borders of the hit box, or turning the smite glyph into something useful, or having PoH effect IF's cd through Train of Thought, or... something sensible.
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1 Human Priest
0


But we're still going to be wanted for raids right? We aren't going to be that fat smelly kid that always gets picked last for dodgeball in HS phys ed, right?


Well, it depends on how many changes get in prior to Cataclysm. Yes, right now in elite guilds a disc priest is the fat smelly kid. Holy priests and shamans aren't much better.

Here's a nice thread where members of Premonition, one of the top guilds in the world, weigh in with their impressions so far. It's a very nice thread with level headed, smart and informed opinions.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27497536220&sid=2000

"Disc priests are so pitiful in their current state that they're barely even worth classifying as a healer." -Shifft, Premonition

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81 Night Elf Death Knight
2085
Penance should not stack Evangelism.

Discipline has problems at 85, but making a somewhat boring spec easier is not the solution.

Things I think needs to be done:

    Divine Accuracy Glyph - NEEDS to affect Holy Fire, possibly Penance and hell while we're at it Holy Nova. Let's just make it affect all Holy spells. But seriously, make it affect Holy Fire.


    Archangel - The +Healing should be boosted to allow Discipline priests to compete in AoE situation with not only Holy Priests, but the three other healers. Also, Archangel should affect Absorbs, especially Power Word: Barrier.


I would like to see Evangelism duration last a little bit longer, either 20 seconds or 30 seconds. Casting 1 Smite per 30 seconds seems far more reasonable than 1 Smite per 15 to sustain the buff.

Lastly, really would like to see Evangelism affect Holy Nova (20% cheaper, 20% more damage).
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85 Draenei Priest
3910
Penance should not stack Evangelism.

Discipline has problems at 85, but making a somewhat boring spec easier is not the solution.

Things I think needs to be done:

    Divine Accuracy Glyph - NEEDS to affect Holy Fire, possibly Penance and hell while we're at it Holy Nova. Let's just make it affect all Holy spells. But seriously, make it affect Holy Fire.


    Archangel - The +Healing should be boosted to allow Discipline priests to compete in AoE situation with not only Holy Priests, but the three other healers. Also, Archangel should affect Absorbs, especially Power Word: Barrier.


I would like to see Evangelism duration last a little bit longer, either 20 seconds or 30 seconds. Casting 1 Smite per 30 seconds seems far more reasonable than 1 Smite per 15 to sustain the buff.

Lastly, really would like to see Evangelism affect Holy Nova (20% cheaper, 20% more damage).


Just as an FYI, I think Evangelism actually does last 20 seconds on the beta.

Other than that, I actually agree with most of your suggestions. I don't know that a change to Archangel is really the right (or at least the only) solution to Disc's AE healing troubles, but it's a good start. It still doesn't give us much of an option when people are taking damage spread out across multiple groups.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
5330
Calling ninja edit... when the edit occurred before his post? Rly?

If Archangel doesn't last long enough, find a way to manage. How many Golden Hammers does it take to get the boss down?


I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, but you have the absolute lack of tact that makes these forums tough to bear. You're standoffish and condescending, which is too bad since you probably have some good ideas. We'll never know, since you lack the necessary social skills to communicate without tons of sarcasm and vitriol.
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100 Night Elf Priest
17900
Let me rephrase, as now I am posting on my main.

I've worked on Heroic Lich King since the 5% buff. I don't care what "priest alts" or "other healers" think, let me just tell you as a veteran priest, Shield Spamming non-stop is absolutely boring and almost thoughtless.

Using Prayer of Mending -and-not-just-on-cooldown on the right person and using Penance to save lives, put up Divine Aegis or Inspiration; that's good game-play. But the filler situation of going through each group row by row, column by column is boring and not fun. It doesn't matter how overpowered Disc Priest looks on healing meter, doing the samething non-stop for 4 hours every night with complete disregard for boss/encounter design for 2-5 nights a week for 12 months IS NOT FUN.

Archangel and Evangelism are interesting, because they give something to maintain and work towards while weaving spells. It gives "something" else to worry about for a spec that is otherwise dreadfully boring. This is a GOOD thing.

However it needs to be simple and easy enough to allow a Healer to play appropriately. Another "terrible" thing is going back to the Resto Druid BC model of having to keep Lifebloom rolling and only having a "free" 5 seconds to actually heal. -- This is the reason why Evangelism duration needs to last a bit longer. With Smite taking 2 to 2.5 seconds to cast (I do not assume 100% of Disc Priests will have the talent, also haste rating varies), and the buff only last 15 seconds that's a good 15% of our time spent just keeping the Evangelism buff up and Smiting. Even at 20 second duration, we still have to spend 10% of our time Smiting to keep Evangelism rolling in order to use Archangel when we need too (or to keep the buff up for the 20% cheaper Penance, which is non-trivial mana savings).

Smite spamming itself is okay, when used appropriately. It can be a bit tedious during lull phases to just spam one button over and over again. There are ways to mitigate this, however: we have a perfectly good glyph that allows Smite to deal 20% extra damage with Holy Fire, and thus 20% more healing via Atonement. In absolute sense, this is an HPS LOSS. The time spent casting 1 Holy Fire is time which could be spent casting another Smite for more healing or casting a regular 'Heal' spell. The problem with this is, a Healer will never have 17% hit rating, missing almost 1 out of ever 5 Holy Fire, a spell on a 10 second cooldown, is rather frustrating. There really is no reason Divine Accuracy should not affect Holy Fire, using the spell is a pure HPS loss, however it makes "Smiting" somewhat more interesting, and at least during "lulls" of smite-spam we have to pay attention to both the Holy Fire DoT and the Holy Fire CD. On this same-note, I really see no reason why Penance is not affected either.

(continued, silly post character cap)
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100 Night Elf Priest
17900
(continued, from above)


The reason cannot be pvp, because pvpers will likely have 4-5% hit they need on their gear anyways and won't need the whopping 17% hit. Please fix this. It is not game-breaking, nor is it unbalanced, it's a quality-of-life fix to stop an annoying/frustrating situation. This creates an "alternative" that allows us to slightly increase our dps at the cost of lowering our Atonement hps.

As far as Archangel goes, it seems very ironic that a spec focused on mitigation and avoidance has a +thoroughput cooldown that does not affect it's "signature" ability. It costs the priests significant "resource" to keep Evangelism up in order to use Archangel as a cooldown when we need too. 5-Smites is a lot of time spent, between 10 to 12.5 seconds or so for 18 seconds of +15%. This assumes we were able to cast 5-Smites in a row. Likely, we'll need to pace ourselves, and cast Smites when possible to build-up our 5-Stack-Evangelism to use Archangel at the appropriate time. This costs us time and mana; with the recent change to Archangel only restoring 1% mana we won't be mana-positive from this. Archangel should give us a bigger reward and is a solution to tremendously help Discipline Priests keep up with Holy Priests and the other 3 Healers when it comes to AoE intensive fights. -- Remember, not only do Holy Priests have Holy Word: Sanctuary; their Prayer of Healing is faster, has a larger radius and heals for more; and they have Circle of Healing. (Not to mention the effectiveness of Smart-Target-AoE-Heals and a talent (Test of Faith) which increases those heals by 12% in most cases).

Evangelism affect Holy Nova is just gravy. As I mentioned above, Discipline only has two non-cooldown spells to deal with AoE damage; one of them is Holy Nova. It would be nice if Holy Nova had more of a niche in the Discipline rotation to give us options. (There is also the innate trade-off here, do you sacrifice the 20% cheaper Holy Nova for the 15% bigger Holy Nova because of Archangel? -- decisions like this are good; in my opinion ). Evangelism affecting Holy Nova essentially gives Discipline (range permitting) granularity to deal with AoE damage besides our long cooldown:
Evangelism Holy Nova -- 20% cheaper, heals for normal amount
Normal Holy Nova -- costs full amount, heals for normal amount
Archangel Holy Nova -- costs full amount, but heals for 15% more
Prayer of Healing -- For every other case where Holy Nova is not viable, or where more thoroughput is needed.

But I beg of you, do not make a simple spec even easier. That's the worst thing that can happen.

P.S. I've been a Priest for 5 years. I've healed every instance ever made by Blizzard _while_ they were relevant. I remember the good days, and the bad days.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
3485
Look at it this way: Evangelism/Archangel is optional.

They are giving disc. priests a way to do a little damage while they heal, with a bonus to healing to make up for the time/mana spent dpsing.

Ret. paladins have a similar mechanic that encourages them to heal while they dps. It was already determined by the paladin community that taking 2/2 Selfless Healer would certainly not be a DPS increase, so instead we find that taking a different utility talent in it's place is preferable.

So instead of looking at Evangelism/Archangel as a necessity for a raiding disc. priest, maybe start looking at it as a way for a priest to do a little DPS on the side while healing mind-numbingly boring heroics. There are certainly other helpful talents you can take. I'll help you out: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#bfhzrosbfRMo
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