Disc Priests fixable with one tweak

100 Human Paladin
6070
Look at it this way: Evangelism/Archangel is optional.

They are giving disc. priests a way to do a little damage while they heal, with a bonus to healing to make up for the time/mana spent dpsing.

Ret. paladins have a similar mechanic that encourages them to heal while they dps. It was already determined by the paladin community that taking 2/2 Selfless Healer would certainly not be a DPS increase, so instead we find that taking a different utility talent in it's place is preferable.

So instead of looking at Evangelism/Archangel as a necessity for a raiding disc. priest, maybe start looking at it as a way for a priest to do a little DPS on the side while healing mind-numbingly boring heroics. There are certainly other helpful talents you can take. I'll help you out: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#bfhzrosbfRMo


Don't really need to look at it that way at all since evan/arch/atone has shown to be an efficiency and hps increase over heal (and there aren't really any better options).
But that might be a way for those still uncomfortable with smite healing to at least ease themselves into using it.

EDIT: made this post before I saw the changes. Waiting with baited breath to find just how much more boring this makes disc :P

As I said on the old wow forums:

The PoH one is a change I'm 110% behind yet adding more healing via grace seems a bit ugh. I'm not sure how these new changes effect the deathmatch between heal and atonement, yet in some ways the grace buff - encourages - using shields on the raid while focusing actual heals on a single target. The grace buff appears to be devaluing a lot of alternative options, outside of heal spamming a single target. Smiting may now *truly* be just for getting arch, which should not be the case.
Edited by Fridays on 11/10/2010 11:41 AM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Physique, I definitely agree with you in regards to Divine Accuracy and Archangel. It would be pretty nice to actually be able to hit with Holy Fire and have something other than Smite to cast when there isn't much going on. Archangel not benefiting absorb effects is a problem, from where I'm standing, that ought to be fixed.

It would be nice if Surge of Light procced Holy Fire as well as Flash Heal. I think it would spice up the lulls and give us an interesting choice between the two spells (assuming it was affected by Divine Accuracy). I suppose the biggest concern with that would be whether it made a talent I'd consider attractive shift more towards being mandatory.

On the subject of Holy Nova, I'd be a little concerned about the current Glyph of Holy Nova (reducing the gcd by .5 sec). As a major glyph, that seems a little powerful in a heavy AoE situation, though perhaps if that became a problem, it could be changed to interact differently. If I recall correctly, Holy Nova's healing was capped at 5 targets per cast. Perhaps the glyph could be changed to be similar to the CoH/WG glyphs, allowing it to heal 6 targets, though all of this is purely hypothetical.
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100 Human Paladin
6070
Physique, I definitely agree with you in regards to Divine Accuracy and Archangel. It would be pretty nice to actually be able to hit with Holy Fire and have something other than Smite to cast when there isn't much going on. Archangel not benefiting absorb effects is a problem, from where I'm standing, that ought to be fixed.

It would be nice if Surge of Light procced Holy Fire as well as Flash Heal. I think it would spice up the lulls and give us an interesting choice between the two spells (assuming it was affected by Divine Accuracy). I suppose the biggest concern with that would be whether it made a talent I'd consider attractive shift more towards being mandatory.

On the subject of Holy Nova, I'd be a little concerned about the current Glyph of Holy Nova (reducing the gcd by .5 sec). As a major glyph, that seems a little powerful in a heavy AoE situation, though perhaps if that became a problem, it could be changed to interact differently. If I recall correctly, Holy Nova's healing was capped at 5 targets per cast. Perhaps the glyph could be changed to be similar to the CoH/WG glyphs, allowing it to heal 6 targets, though all of this is purely hypothetical.


I reckon some simple tweeks to evan, Divine accuracy and the smite glyph could bring Holy Fire into the picture. Grant a stack of evan for holy fire, give 18% hit for Holy Fire on the DA glyph, and increase the dot duration by 1.5 secs (or something) when a smite lands.

The Holy Nova glyph is somewhat devalued for disc due to borrowed time. Idk if it really is going to add a lot to a disc priest compared to a holy priest. The DA/PoH change also marginalizes HN somewhat - however this is all purely theoretical at this stage.
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100 Human Paladin
6070
They capped the number of targets Holy Nova can hit - did they make it a smart heal, or simply a spam and pray? If it's the latter, I'm not sanguine about using it in an AoE situation anyways.

From what I've seen in the raids so far on Beta, there aren't any real lulls - just situations where only the tank is taking damage. I'd still prefer to be putting out shields for the next AoE round, keeping some extra absorbs stacked on the tank or keeping Inspiration refreshed on the MT. Atonement is the new shiny toy, but we're still based around absorptions and damage prevention. The last round of Disc buffs really highlights this.


How?

I'm following you in regards to the DA/PoH change, however the grace change baffles me. 24% more healing on a single target is a huge amount, and one that's difficult to balance around. Let's look at renew, for example, if the healing of renew is balanced around grace then it becomes useless on other raid members - however if renew is not balanced around grace then it becomes OP on the MT. A more pressing example would be ProM, where a 24% delta in effectiveness would be very very awkward.

PW:S is, almost be definition, NOT balanced around grace and thus becomes a fall back.

Instead of using a complete toolkit on various raid members all options outside of spamming heals on *one* target and simply using shields on everyone else are marginalized.

The Grace change doesn't really highlight anything - it's simply a restrictive change.
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100 Human Paladin
6070
I can see where you're coming from - I'm just caught up in the numbers right now.

To me, 12% is cherry on the top, 24% is extreme. It causes hesitation on using single target heals on raid members and potentially causes redundancies in the toolkit. Deltas are all fine and good, however within a certain spectrum.

As you said, if throughput is fine on non-graced targets grace becomes less of a restriction (I'll add that losing the stacks may be quite a restriction in itself). But the point is that it IS a restriction to begin with. EDITED to add: If healing is balanced around non-graced targets then where does that put PW:S? Does it lose its potency on the tank in order to be in-line with 24% less effectiveness on everyone else - or is it counter-balanced to be good enough to be used on a graced target that it becomes imba (in comparison to our other 'heals') on everyone else.

If I was master and commander I'd personally like to see:

'When you bless a target with grace your healing and damage is increased by 8% for 6 seconds'

This does not marginalize atonement, single-target heals on the raid, or 'spread out' heals (renew, prom etc). Since the duration is quite short it makes the up-keep of it thoughtful and makes Strength of Soul an interesting decision for a smite build. It opens up (while simultaneously buffing) the spec instead of tapering its options. It is merely an example of the direction the spec could (and would go as far to say - should) take. Disc has a history of having a restrictive toolkit, there's no point in perpetuating issues of the past.
Edited by Fridays on 11/10/2010 1:15 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Gonna have to go with Fridays on this one. Earth Shield gives me a 15% healing buff on the target, which is good. There's a reason I get a couple Riptides out before I have to start doing chain heals. 25% increased healing is too good to ignore, even when it's only for one cast of one spell. Edit: That's not to say I won't CH without Riptide out, just that I'd be remiss if I didn't get a few out into the raid just before an aoe damage phase.

The earth shield buff, while nice, isn't really worth the gcd to move around. The time it takes would have me more than halfway through a second heal. If I can work my chain heals around the guy with earth shield, bonus because as Fridays said, it's the cherry top.
Edited by Niraada on 11/10/2010 1:19 PM PST
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
Ah crap, I forgot they cut the cooldown on Archangel to 30 seconds from 60, though with that, there's even less reason someone should be complaining they can't keep it up often enough. If someone can't manage without maximum uptime of a cooldown like that, chances are they're out of their depth, especially when they have so many other emergency tools.


Sorry, but this is the part where I wonder if you actually know what you're talking about or if you're talking out your backside which seems far more likely.

You started off by saying Disc priests had no problem and that I needed to L2P rather than discussing the fact that disc talents arent doing enough to help raid healing. I understand you're underinformed and dont have time to research before you post. Thats fine. But if you dont understand how the class and the spells work just walk away.

Instead, now that you're been made aware that Disc has issues on Beta, you're going to help us solve our problems?

Your argument against penance is feeble. In your scenario (smite completely trivialized) you are going to spend 50 seconds trying to get max stacks of Evangelism for a single AA proc? 15% mana return + healing buff / 50 seconds is a golden hammer. If you think that, please give your gear to someone who will make better use of it and stop letting your guild carry you.

I could try to explain how much less sense the grace change makes, but does effectively the same thing while substantially trivializing core Disc mechanics, but I dont believe you would get it. You seem pretty determined not to.

And go tell Premonition's Disc priests to L2P, scrub.
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100 Human Paladin
6070
Ah crap, I forgot they cut the cooldown on Archangel to 30 seconds from 60, though with that, there's even less reason someone should be complaining they can't keep it up often enough. If someone can't manage without maximum uptime of a cooldown like that, chances are they're out of their depth, especially when they have so many other emergency tools.


Sorry, but this is the part where I wonder if you actually know what you're talking about or if you're talking out your backside which seems far more likely.

You started off by saying Disc priests had no problem and that I needed to L2P rather than discussing the fact that disc talents arent doing enough to help raid healing. I understand you're underinformed and dont have time to research before you post. Thats fine. But if you dont understand how the class and the spells work just walk away.

Instead, now that you're been made aware that Disc has issues on Beta, you're going to help us solve our problems?

Your argument against penance is feeble. In your scenario (smite completely trivialized) you are going to spend 50 seconds trying to get max stacks of Evangelism for a single AA proc? 15% mana return + healing buff / 50 seconds is a golden hammer. If you think that, please give your gear to someone who will make better use of it and stop letting your guild carry you.

I could try to explain how much less sense the grace change makes, but does effectively the same thing while substantially trivializing core Disc mechanics, but I dont believe you would get it. You seem pretty determined not to.

And go tell Premonition's Disc priests to L2P, scrub.


ewww just stop
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85 Draenei Shaman
4815
Doubt Premonition's disc priests are asking for the spec to be made easier. Yes, the spec has problems, many of which can be sorted out with tuning. You, however, still have a l2p problem, which is likely a bigger contributor to any problems you're having than spec tuning. You've been asking for a way to sidestep Evangelism from the outset while providing no actual reasoning other than "its hard".

Gonna pull a quote on you:
Your choice to debate an opinion [brokenness of disc] makes you more troll than forum contributor.


I'd like to thank you for this one. It really sums up nicely your eyes-shut-mouth-open approach to discussion. By all means, continue.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
Doubt Premonition's disc priests are asking for the spec to be made easier.

Actually, no one asked for the spec to be made easier. I called for attention to Disc's lack of suitability for peak healing demands, and I suggested that Penance could provide a bridge for AA to be used in healing rotations as well as filler DPS rotations.
You, other forum members, and Prem's priests may not agree with the penance suggestion, but you decided to make this an issue about game skill - hence I've pointed out that those considered to have the most skill are finding the same problems with the spec.
Yes, the spec has problems, many of which can be sorted out with tuning.

Oh, glad you're on board now.

You, however, still have a l2p problem, which is likely a bigger contributor to any problems you're having than spec tuning.

no u. scrub.

You've been asking for a way to sidestep Evangelism from the outset while providing no actual reasoning other than "its hard".

I've been asking for a way to get AA to do something useful instead of what it does now - give you a 15% mana return and healing buff at a time in the fight when you need it least. Meanwhile, under intense healing pressure, Disc has issues and could benefit from increased healing and mana return.
What I've been asking for is a way to make a bunch of minimally useful talents do something to help solve issues with the Disc spec.
I agree, tuning could do the same thing - fix disc healing under peak demand. I suggest the Penance change would be better since you would have to watch your penance CD, your AA / Evangelism timers, but you'd have more control over when to pop AA for best mana efficiency and use of healing buff.
I know you really like your mario brothers analogies, but calling that a golden hammer when the buffs we actually got will do something very similar (give you +healing to your direct heal targets during intense healing situations) but dont actually have any real player decisions or use of interesting disc mechanics, makes you look pretty inconsistent.
Gonna pull a quote on you:
Your choice to debate an opinion [brokenness of disc] makes you more troll than forum contributor.

I'd like to thank you for this one. It really sums up nicely your eyes-shut-mouth-open approach to discussion. By all means, continue.

You have attempted to make my skill a factor in every reply to me rather than discuss the concepts. This suggests that you are good at trolling, but bad at understanding play mechanics.

edit : fix nested quote
Edited by Servo on 11/10/2010 2:43 PM PST
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100 Troll Priest
10050
...adding more healing via grace seems a bit ugh. I'm not sure how these new changes effect the deathmatch between heal and atonement, yet in some ways the grace buff - encourages - using shields on the raid while focusing actual heals on a single target. The grace buff appears to be devaluing a lot of alternative options, outside of heal spamming a single target. Smiting may now *truly* be just for getting arch, which should not be the case.


Agreed with an additional "ugh".

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82 Blood Elf Priest
4610
Priests are fine. /thread.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
Priests are fine. /thread.


You are fine. /secks

@ Thread

Seems like our concerns were addressed in the most boring way possible, but addressed. (as SQA/SDET I should be thrilled that they made the smart software design decision and went with the low risk change this close to release I guess...)
wtb beta feedback on latest disc changes. curious how peak healing feels, and if mana regen and hps are approaching other class/specs yet.

edit : i suck at bbcode, & new forums hate white space.
Edited by Servo on 11/10/2010 4:40 PM PST
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82 Blood Elf Priest
4610
I am just saying ive been raiding as a priest since everyone wanted my dwarf cause fear ward was overpowered; and priests are in the best shape of their lives right now. i enjoy every moment of playing my multiple 80 disc priests.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
@ Accuracy changes

Accuracy glyph is meant to make smite / atonement functional on live.

It looks to me like blizzard expects you to take Twisted Faith at 85 if you want to land more damage spells, and it isnt necessary to land anything other than smite. Casting Holy Fire to buff your atonement heals is a loss of throughput not to mention mana unless the evangelism proc is also added anyway (fun factor aside.)

Obviously picking up Twisted Faith means you're spec'ing out of Emp Healing and SoL or Inspiration which does not seem like a responsible raiding spec to me.

I think Twisted Faith spec is going to be crippled for raiding, and appears to me to only be very useful for loldisc dps and 5mans, but the fact that you have the option to pick up +hit from spirit means you arent likely to get a change to the glyph.

I'm not trying to be contrary or rain on anyone's parade, I just suspect that the request may fall on deaf ears for above mentioned reasons, and if our objectives are 1. Increase fun of atonement healing, or 2. Improve the class mechanics then we should consider how it appeals to Blizz if we want it to happen.
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100 Human Paladin
6070
Gonna have to go with Fridays on this one. Earth Shield gives me a 15% healing buff on the target, which is good. There's a reason I get a couple Riptides out before I have to start doing chain heals. 25% increased healing is too good to ignore, even when it's only for one cast of one spell. Edit: That's not to say I won't CH without Riptide out, just that I'd be remiss if I didn't get a few out into the raid just before an aoe damage phase.

The earth shield buff, while nice, isn't really worth the gcd to move around. The time it takes would have me more than halfway through a second heal. If I can work my chain heals around the guy with earth shield, bonus because as Fridays said, it's the cherry top.


I think I was the one who said it was the cherry on top :P

But on the actual thread, before it got caught up in trolling - I think there's a difference between Grace and Earth Shield that deserves discussion. Earth Shield on someone other than a tank is less than optimal, unless you can predict that person is going to take consistent damage to proc it. There's not a big inducement to move Earth Shield often.

Not only that, but it actually consumes a GCD to move - Grace is moved by doing what you'd be doing anyways, there's no additional GCD usage. Since the heal we use to switch Grace (say, if the rogue is standing in fire again and needs a Flash Heal) is not impacted by Grace, the operative factor is our non Grace throughput and how it compares to other classes.


Right, and I furthered that by essentially saying 12% was enough of a cherry on the top - 24% is the majority of the cake itself.

The argument can really go both ways on ES vs Grace. Sure grace is automatically applied, yet at the same time using a direct heal on someone in the raid doesn't force your ES on that person. Higher heals on the tank are there for a reason; they are the person you'll be healing most often for a larger amount. Yet how many times do you really have to flash that rogue 3 times in a row to get the stacks up, and then have to continue flashing them? Not often, and if it does happen a lot it sounds like a problem with the rogue moreso than anything else.

But the real crux of the argument is the interaction of the benefits of riptide and ES vs. Grace. Both the CH benefits of RT and H% benefits of ES lead towards the player utilizing as much of their toolkit as possible or necessary (or, even if the use of their toolkit isn't promoted it is still not restricted). Grace functions differently; it does not impact atonement, PW:S and aoe heals, which should be a huge part of disc's caliber (most of their tree is devoted to the first and second dynamics). It lends itself to paladin WotLK healing, and while it won't be quite that extreme, it suggests that interesting and fundamental nuisances within the spec could very well be ignored in preference to a blander, yet more # effective, style.
Edited by Fridays on 11/10/2010 9:57 PM PST
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