Disc Priests fixable with one tweak

80 Night Elf Hunter
1770

But the real crux of the argument is the interaction of the benefits of riptide and ES vs. Grace. Both the CH benefits of RT and H% benefits of ES lead towards the player utilizing as much of their toolkit as possible or necessary (or, even if the use of their toolkit isn't promoted it is still not restricted). Grace functions differently; it does not impact atonement, PW:S and aoe heals, which should be a huge part of disc's caliber (most of their tree is devoted to the first and second dynamics). It lends itself to paladin WotLK healing, and while it won't be quite that extreme, it suggests that interesting and fundamental nuisances within the spec could very well be ignored in preference to a blander, yet more # effective, style.


I agree.. the interaction of Grace with most of the discipline spec is negligible. Its a very direct solution to the hps issues with the class and hopefully an effective one, but arguably not the most interesting one.

I think simply letting Penance stack Evangelism on heal or damage would have been far more compelling, and contrary to complaints by noisy shaman on this thread would have required more skill, interesting decision making about when to use AA (pop AA for another heal buff and mana return during frenetic healing phases or keep Evangelism stacks up for the impending return to smite / atonement rotation to maintain high / efficient Smites.)

I understand Blizz has stated that they dont want to lock you in to using a certain spell (though they expect you to use the right tool at the right time) so they may not be in favor of putting so much weight on Penance, but it does seem to make sense as a hallmark of the Disc tree.

Anyway, I think the Grace buff will probably be tuned until launch because its the most direct and easiest solution.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770
I don't like the Penance stacking Evangelism solution simply because it makes Evangelism/Archangel/Atonement the mandatory spec. I hate the idea of DPS healing, so that won't be my spec (that's an aside, of course). I think Disc non-Grace single target throughput can be adjusted more elegantly - say, by buffing Empowered Healing or reducing the cooldown of Penance to its Wrath level. I don't think forcing everyone into the same spec is an elegant solution.


For reference, are you saying you're not spec'ing Disc, or you're not spec'ing in to atonement?

You've already got 7 points devoted to Smite / Atonement healing in the Disc tree. If you dont like the Penance idea simply because it makes it impossible for you to avoid the obvious design of the spec then I'd say it seems like some of your resistance is to the tree itself.

By making the change through Empowered Healing you make Twisted Faith even less viable, which as far as I can tell is really your only major decision in the Disc tree. Other choices are between picking up atonement and mana saving talents which really only help with shield cost.

You're also massively buffing the Holy tree. If you intend to spec Holy that may be more interesting to you anyway.

What you're basically asking for with a buff to Empowered Healing is a passive, flat healing buff.

If you want to give a Disc only healing buff then buff Renewed Hope IMO. It puts more value in PW:S, mastery points, and Borrowed Time - all good solid smart Disc mechanics. Grace encourages Flash Heal IMO.


I'm not sure ES vs. Grace really defines a comparison of Disc vs. Resto shaman - I was mostly contrasting the ES mechanic vs. Grace to note that Grace isn't as clunky as it could be (doesn't cost a GCD, for instance). Resto shamans really aren't limited by this mechanic, since they've been raid Chain Heal bots forever. We haven't been limited by Grace, since we've been bubble bots for Wrath. If we're still Chain Heal and bubble bots in Cata, comparing those two will be moot.


Sadly buff to Renewed Hope encourages bubble botting. :(
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100 Night Elf Priest
16755
First, stop being condescending.

Second, the grace buff is to address tank healing. Don't kid yourself. But this isn't bad. It put's us on-par with Shaman's using Earth Shield on the tank and Holy Priests using the Heal Chakra to tank heal.

Honestly, it's very good and even though it does "corner" us a little. It's not bad. We can still use Power Word: Shield or Renew and not lose our Grace stack. This creates a niche in our healing pattern for both spells (and Prayer of Mending, as well).

Third, Penance stacking Evangelism is still silly. It would mean Evangelism has "no thought". I don't care if you made Shadow Word: Pain, Devouring Plague, Prayer of Healing, Levitate or Mind Vision stack Evangelism, the worst thing to do is to make it completely thoughtless and passive. It would be far more interesting game play to spam Mind Soothe 5 times to stack Evangelism than it would to just have Penance -- a rotational spell -- stack it.

Fourth, I still fully believe when someone at Blizzard gets around to it, the Divine Accuracy Glyph will be changed to affect Holy Fire, or just all Holy spells in general. I am calling this one an oversight, and nothing else.
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80 Night Elf Hunter
1770

I wasn't actually proposing buffing Empowered Healing, I'm just pointing it out as a way to buff Disc/Holy (Holy is in a very poor state, the buff would do them well) without making any mechanics changes. I don't think Disc's mechanics are a problem, we just might need a smallish numbers tweak. A Holy buff might well come from refining the Chakra mechanic, if it needs it.


I havent done much research on holy but last I heard they were in worse shape that Disc so I would believe they could use Emp Healing buff too. I like Disc's mechanics and I feel like I have enough tools to raid heal. My only concerns were throughput and mana, and the output gains we're picking up from grace should help with that, as well as the PoH buff and letting PoH proc Divine Aegis.

I hadnt really considered it, but who knows, if I get to make so little use of Atonement / AA (which actually seems like fun to me) during raids in Cataclysm then maybe I'll spec out of it. There are plenty of mana and survivability talents that might help more if it comes down to succeeding vs. fun. Since Im not in beta I'll just have to wait and see.

@ Physique - GL with the glyph change. I think it might be better to put the spirit to +hit talent in Twin Disciplines at 33% per point. Shadow still needs to pick up the talent but it saves Disc from having to spec redonkulous to get holy spells to land.

also, I see what you're saying about Penance being a rotation spell and therefor not a compelling decision about stacking Evangelism. I think it makes the archangel decision more interesting however, and makes sense from the perspective of fitting well with what you want to do and should be doing. I'll also point out again that the mana return on AA currently is given at the most useless possible time, and the healing buff is useful for tank healing but lackluster for fights with a lot of running about and party damage, like the ones I keep hearing Cat is full of.

edit : also I see what Sausage is saying about the penance change making the smite build virtually mandatory. If the CD on penance was dropped back down then I'd say it would still be reasonable to take Evangelism and AA and not make smite talents mandatory, BUT tuning gets ugly and it doesnt take much to end up invalidating one spec or the other pretty quickly. Not a problem anyone wants to have.

Anyway, we seem to have our buffs for the time being. If you know of anyone in Beta playing a Disc priest tell them to stop by and let us know how its going! EJ has been focusing on priest, pally and shammy comparisons and new Disc numbers arent really being crunched.
Edited by Servo on 11/11/2010 8:42 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Priest
7550
I havent done much research on holy but last I heard they were in worse shape that Disc so I would believe they could use Emp Healing buff too.


Not quite sure where you heard that but it is just flat wrong. The only restriction Holy has right now is it's mana, which is as it should be. They are the baseline Blizzard is bringing the other healing specs too. This is also the main reason Disc is so hard to balance right now. Holy IS performing fine and tuning Disc would inevitably buff Holy which is not a desired result and the reason Grace/Renewed Hope is where the tweaking for Disc will be done.
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100 Night Elf Priest
16755
That's not entirely true. They can tune the Discipline passives, or Penance or tweak the cooldown on some of the other talents.

They can tweak Inner Focus, Atonement, Penance, Strength of Soul or Train of Thought.

Of the top of my head, and these are by no means what I think they should do, just some of the things they could do:

Inner Focus - 100% critical, this would strength Discipline's AoE prowess once every 45 seconds.
Strength of Soul - Modify it to work with Flash Heal, Binding Heal and Greater Heal. (Honestly, it should work with Greater Heal, it's slower and costlier than Heal, no reason it does not).
Penance - Increased healing on any target affected by Weakened Soul. Or some talent somewhere which also increases the critical chance of Penance by ~15% (per a tick).

One idea I would love, is if Discipline somehow had a talent that caused Weakened Soul to give 10% physical damage reduction which does NOT stack with Inspiration.
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96 Human Paladin
5285
It's kind of a waste of energy to debate a mechanic with someone when the presence of it is utterly refuse pre-conception. Oh and, as was mentioned earlier, the fact that atonement does damage is a non-factor - even if the healing portion was the only aspect about it it would still be worthwhile and attractive.

Honestly it's hard to tell anymore who are more selfless about their roles, healers or dps. Sure you want them to get out of the fire, yet at the same time you'll dismiss an obviously superior mechanic simply for the fact that it also produces yellow numbers.
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85 Human Priest
6610
That's not entirely true. They can tune the Discipline passives, or Penance or tweak the cooldown on some of the other talents.

They can tweak Inner Focus, Atonement, Penance, Strength of Soul or Train of Thought.

Of the top of my head, and these are by no means what I think they should do, just some of the things they could do:

Inner Focus - 100% critical, this would strength Discipline's AoE prowess once every 45 seconds.
Strength of Soul - Modify it to work with Flash Heal, Binding Heal and Greater Heal. (Honestly, it should work with Greater Heal, it's slower and costlier than Heal, no reason it does not).
Penance - Increased healing on any target affected by Weakened Soul. Or some talent somewhere which also increases the critical chance of Penance by ~15% (per a tick).

One idea I would love, is if Discipline somehow had a talent that caused Weakened Soul to give 10% physical damage reduction which does NOT stack with Inspiration.


I agree with some of your suggestions but not all of them. I am glad to have Inner Focus be 100% mana free and 25% crit over 100% crit.

I agree SoS really needs a boost. At the very least at Atonement heal keeping Heal and Atonement in balance and further rewarding the risk taken by Smiting over casting Heal.

I think you may have forgotten about Renewed Hope:

Renewed Hope Rank 2
Increases the critical effect chance of your Flash Heal, Greater Heal, Heal and Penance (Heal) spells by 10% on targets afflicted by the Weakened Soul effect, or blessed with your Grace effect.

It pretty much already does what your third suggestion mentions except it doesn't limit it to just penance.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the latest Beta changes work out. I think Disc will be in a good place, people just need to give it some time to be tested. I like the fact that disc priests will also now have to pay more attention to WS and Grace as a means to increase their healing.
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96 Human Paladin
5285
If you're condescending towards me - how is Atonement "obviously" superior? As far as I know, my role as a Disc priest will still be pre-shielding and tank healing. Atonement obviously fails the first test - it looks to be more efficient than Heal spam, but who here was just planning on Heal spamming? Does Atonement refresh Inspiration? Does it take advantage of benefits like Strength of Soul? I've already mentioned how skipping Mental Agility is a large mana loss - how can you accuse me of rejecting it out of hand? On the contrary, I've tried it and I find it's just as abjectly boring as shield spam. Except it causes yellow numbers (which I think is 100% the reason for the fad).


It's not condescending, just because there has been trolling in this thread you don't have to think I'm denying what you're saying outright. The statement wasn't direct solely at you; I've seen tons of posts saying 'my job is to heal, not dps' which ignores the actual healing benefits of smiting. Saying smite is a gimmick, in fact stating that it unarguably is a gimmick, prohibits acknowledgment that it is both higher hps and hpm than heal (at least it was) and limits the conversation more than my 'condescending' remark.

Smite doesn't take advantage of inspiration or SoS, yet one could easily say that heal doesn't take advantage of ToT (fully at least). Arguably if you're providing inspiration you'd want to go Holy anyway for larger uptime. Mental Agility is very easy to budget with a smite build: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#bfGorRsbcRMochb .

No one's saying 'only smite' or 'only heal' the point is weaving in the more efficient casts. Smite healing could arguably lend more diversity to the weaving process through the management of evan (for cheaper penances), the use of arch and not moving grace of the tank (if melee needs a small pick up).

Pre-shielding may not be as strong depending on how the raids are developed and tuned - times will tell on that. Smiting doesn't really fail at tank healing unless gheal or fheal are needed; in which case access to arch for those times is invaluable.

We'll see just how good smiting will be, my argument is don't dismiss it outright as a gimmick.
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