Totemic Reach, and the problems therewith

11 Gnome Mage
0
I hate to generalize. I don't like to think that I speak for everybody, since there's almost always exceptions. But, I don't think it's hyperbole when I say that nobody likes the current implementation of Totemic Reach.

The talent currently exists for two reasons - to "complete" Elemental Reach's job of letting us stand at 40 yard range, and to buff our buffs to make them more usable on fights with a high degree of spreading out. When you're not required to stand at absolute maximum range (5 yards less is usually not overly punishing, afterall), or the fight doesn't call for your raid to be heavily spread out, it provides no benefit to you personally, so it's something you would always prefer to skip in favor of taking less damage or something along those lines - but then you'd have to go back and respec for fights with spreading.


I suggest that the talent simply be removed, or changed into a talent that affects our defensive-type totems (Like the old Guardian Totems/Earth's Grasp). The effect that improves the range of our buffing totems could then be turned into a glyph (which makes a heck of a lot more sense given its situational nature - it's a lot easier to swap a glyph around for a fight then to have to go back to town to respec), and Elemental Reach could take care of its whole job in one place rather than having to outsource part of it to an Enhancement talent.

Elemental (and Resto) would have more free points to spend no matter the fight design, Enhancement could have the longer range totems where appropriate without giving up damage talents, and there would be no more complications.

Thoughts?
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
11935
No, the talent still exists because, despite the fact that Blizzard wanted to remove all talents that buff buffs to be better, they made totems suck SO hard, they had to keep this one.

And yet, they still don't see nobody really bothers to get it in a serious spec.
Edited by Matuk on 11/5/2010 4:30 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Human Paladin
6070
You look like a bridesmaid straw.

And ya, TR is kind of an oddball.
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Shaman
3445
Your avatar is adorable.

Yeah, the talent is silly. It's like the Mind Flay glyph. Just being stubborn. :(
Reply Quote
85 Troll Priest
3245
I like your idea about making the buffing yard increase a (non-prime) glyph. I think totemic reach should simply be axed and searing goes upto 40 yards via Ele Reach- its annoying that a 'buff of buffs' is kept around in part because it also works on utility totems (even then its not a strong talent for just them). We already have totemic focus in Restore anyways.

If the talent has to stick around.. then I'd rather it be solely dedicated to utility instead of also being partly a situational raid or personal dps talent. It could up EB and Grounding range and increase SC's shield (+glyph caster shield) and maybe have another defensive effect.

(also, avatar tusks+++++!)
Edited by Rihk on 11/5/2010 5:16 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
11935
I like your idea about making the buffing yard increase a (non-prime) glyph. I think totemic reach should simply be axed and searing goes upto 40 yards via Ele Reach- its annoying that a 'buff of buffs' is kept around in part because it also works on utility totems (even then its not a strong talent for just them). We already have totemic focus in Restore anyways.

If the talent has to stick around.. then I'd rather it be solely dedicated to utility instead of also being partly a situational raid or personal dps talent. It could up EB and Grounding range and increase SC's shield (+glyph caster shield) and maybe have another defensive effect.

(also, avatar tusks+++++!)

Currently I get Totemic Reach for the sake of a large Earthbind radius, but I'm starting to think even that isn't enough.

I'm tempted to drop both that, and Toughness, so that I can at least get SOME burst through Searing Flames.
Reply Quote
11 Gnome Mage
0
If the talent has to stick around.. then I'd rather it be solely dedicated to utility instead of also being partly a situational raid or personal dps talent. It could up EB and Grounding range and increase SC's shield (+glyph caster shield) and maybe have another defensive effect.

Yeah, this is a solid idea. Actually, that could be used to fix the stoneclaw scaling problem as well - something like, say:

Guardian Totems (2pts, replacing Totemic Reach)
Increases the amount of damage absorbed by your Stoneclaw Totem's shield by 0.5/1% (maybe 1/2%, but that may be a lot when scaled with the glyph) of your total health, and increases the radius of your Earthbind Totem by 3/6 yards.

That would make it an interesting choice to rival things like Ancestral Resolve or Reverberation (for Elemental), rather than being something with usefulness entirely determined by how far your raid wants to spread out.
Edited by Strawberry on 11/5/2010 6:19 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Orc Warlock
10990
It seems pretty useful for pvp.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Shaman
6490
I agree it is silly to have to grab 2 more points into enh totem talent, to hit max range. Bliz did this so we wouldn't take both the Elemental reach , and totemic reach and end up with a huge range on searing.

The talent needs to be removed and 50 yards made baseline on totems. As it is we spend 4 points to make searing our max range, and 2 of those points are to buff our buffs, so they can be 50% of the range of every comparable buff. It is time to call the talent what it is, obsolete since homogenization of buffs. Is it asking too much for tots to be half the range as everyone else buff, without having to spend 2 talent points on it?

This would also allow them to fix elemental reach, to give searing 40 yards as it should.
Reply Quote
85 Troll Shaman
6490
It seems pretty useful for pvp.


how is totemic reach useful in PvP? making EB 13 yards and not ten? Smart use of grounding causes it to be cast as spell finishes, meaning you do not run out of range. and lets face it the extra range on tremor hasn't stopped us from being feared out of it.
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Shaman
12305
Apparently it used to be a talent in Vanilla, and then they removed it? I find myself a little flabbergasted (okay, that's an exaggeration, just mildly annoyed) that they reimplemented this talent with no selfish benefit at all.

Even a little selfish benefit would probably go a long way towards making it something shamans actually *want* to take and not a sad waste of 2 talent points.
Edited by Orphane on 11/5/2010 7:59 PM PDT
Reply Quote
11 Gnome Mage
0
Apparently it used to be a talent in Vanilla, and then they removed it?

Yeah, last time Totemic Reach existed, it was called Totemic Mastery, and it increased the range of totems from 20 to 30 yards. After a while, everybody forgot that totems weren't 30 yards by default, and in order to open up the option of not going so far down resto for Elemental and Enhance, they removed the talent and just made totems 30 yards default.

It'd be nice if history repeated itself on that one, to some extent :)

Even a little selfish benefit would probably go a long way towards making it something shamans actually *want* to take and not a sad waste of 2 talent points.

Maybe. I'm not a big fan of adding selfish benefit to it, since that wouldn't improve the flexible point situation for Elemental (we'd be solidly down to 2 all the time instead of only on fights where have to take it due to spreading issues). It'd be best if the talent were made more optional/utility-based, and less a key part of our buffing ability depending on fight design.
Edited by Strawberry on 11/5/2010 9:06 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Troll Shaman
6490
Have to agree with strawberry, for supposedly having more options, I feel really restricted in specing. It would be nice to free up a cpl of talent points for taking one of those utility talents which are getting overlooked.
Reply Quote
100 Goblin Shaman
16845
Why not just make totemic reach into more of a strictly utility talent.

    Totemic Reach
    Increases the area of effect of your earthbind, grounding, healing stream, elemental resistence and tremor totems by 15/30% and increases the health of your totems by 2/4% of your maximum health.

Then just have elemental reach take searing up to 40 yards instead of 35.
Reply Quote
85 Gnome Mage
4895
Hrm, I don't think my post really added anything...and I don't see a way to delete posts on these new forums so.... Hi!
Edited by Smacky on 11/6/2010 11:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
11 Gnome Mage
0
Why not just make totemic reach into more of a strictly utility talent.

    Totemic Reach
    Increases the area of effect of your earthbind, grounding, healing stream, elemental resistence and tremor totems by 15/30% and increases the health of your totems by 2/4% of your maximum health.

Then just have elemental reach take searing up to 40 yards instead of 35.


Yeah, that kind of thing would work. The key distinction, as I see it, is that the talent shouldn't relate to improving buffs. Improving or granting new utility is all good, since it's a choice that helps us personally as well as helping the group.

But buffs are a different story. As long as a talent exists that directly improves them in a clear, tangible way, buffs are too much on your mind - do I want to improve my buffs for the good of the group, or do I act "selfishly" and ignore that? Can I get away with not taking it?

If they want us to worry less about buffs, then they shouldn't be parts of talents, particularly now that we have so few to work with. All the talent accomplishes is to make us choose between what we want, and what the group needs from us.
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
11935
Why not just make totemic reach into more of a strictly utility talent.
    Totemic Reach
    Increases the area of effect of your earthbind, grounding, healing stream, elemental resistence and tremor totems by 15/30% and increases the health of your totems by 2/4% of your maximum health.

Then just have elemental reach take searing up to 40 yards instead of 35.

Yeah, that kind of thing would work. The key distinction, as I see it, is that the talent shouldn't relate to improving buffs. Improving or granting new utility is all good, since it's a choice that helps us personally as well as helping the group.
But buffs are a different story. As long as a talent exists that directly improves them in a clear, tangible way, buffs are too much on your mind - do I want to improve my buffs for the good of the group, or do I act "selfishly" and ignore that? Can I get away with not taking it?
If they want us to worry less about buffs, then they shouldn't be parts of talents, particularly now that we have so few to work with. All the talent accomplishes is to make us choose between what we want, and what the group needs from us.

The talent already improves Earthbind, Grounding, and those totems we call "selfish"
They just realized Shaman hate having inferior buffs, so they thought that adding 12 yards to our buff totems would help us cry less about the other buffs that do the same job (and they're wrong, of course).

The problem is that it's not a benefit anybody cares about.

The suggested change is still not a talent most people would care to get.
Edited by Matuk on 11/6/2010 7:12 PM PDT
Reply Quote
11 Gnome Mage
0
They just realized Shaman hate having inferior buffs, so they thought that adding 12 yards to our buff totems would help us cry less about the other buffs that do the same job (and they're wrong, of course).

The problem is that it's not a benefit anybody cares about.

The suggested change is still not a talent most people would care to get.


True, but it would no longer be a talent anybody needs to get. If it was specifically set up to improve those non-buffing totems and carried with it some other benefit (like the extra health to totems, or the scaling to the shield granted by Stoneclaw, or whatever), then it becomes something that you can get if you think it'll help, rather than something you have to get whenever your group needs you to due to fight design.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Shaman
10050
Totemic reach is just one of those "WTF were they thinking..." talents, kinda like throwing specialization. (How did that make it into the 4.0 trees but not unfair advantage...) It is a barely useful talent that should have been baseline and was thrown into an already bloated tree.

It just needs to be removed and forgotten, or at least converted into something slightly useful like the old guardian totems talent.

Oh, and axe totemic focus as well, another useless filler thrown in.
Edited by Svera on 11/6/2010 7:55 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Tauren Shaman
11935
They just realized Shaman hate having inferior buffs, so they thought that adding 12 yards to our buff totems would help us cry less about the other buffs that do the same job (and they're wrong, of course).

The problem is that it's not a benefit anybody cares about.

The suggested change is still not a talent most people would care to get.


True, but it would no longer be a talent anybody needs to get. If it was specifically set up to improve those non-buffing totems and carried with it some other benefit (like the extra health to totems, or the scaling to the shield granted by Stoneclaw, or whatever), then it becomes something that you can get if you think it'll help, rather than something you have to get whenever your group needs you to due to fight design.

We frankly just need to do away with it.
Enhancement has 43 total talent points.
Retribution has 38 total talent points.

I think it would be nice to prune 5 points from our tree. Toughness and Totemic Reach are both very much still bloat. Ancestral Swiftness is bloat as well, it's just required bloat.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/981828294
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]