Rets too Vulnerable to Dispel Mechanics

85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
oook. looks like we have another unexperienced player talking here. if you actually played ret and actually won a few fights , ull have way more healing to do than the amount of damage you will deal, hence why the spec and class is just totally not working right. a dps spec should be able to keep pressure on a target and DEAL DAMAGE, not try to outlast their opponents.


Ohhhhh the irony of this statement.

Yes, you can still burst someone down as ret if you're not absolutely terrible. That doesn't mean you CAN'T do enough damage or that we CAN'T be dps/damage heroes, but you have the added responsibility of keeping an eye on your teammates. If you don't WANT that responsibility you can go roll a pure class but I promise you good warriors, rogues, priests, and magi ALL know how to use their abilities to help their teammates.

Yes, ideally we should be putting pressure on our target but EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT and you have to react accordingly. Sometimes I have to use my 3HP to heal my rogue partner or use a GCD to BoP my healer. My target isn't a raid boss focusing a tank.

Don't believe me? Look at your talents. There are 3 talents in the ret tree specifically designed to help you help your teammates. If you have a pvp build without [Selfless Healer] at the very least, you are terrible. Blizz is also giving rets an improved Cleanse to remove snares on ourselves with the intention that we use Freedom on others.

Remember also that burst is going to be different at lvl 85. As I recall they adjusted our base damage and health pools to help ease the insane burst of pvp (as well as boss damage). It's a problem at lvl80 but 80 isn't going to be the level cap for much longer.
Edited by Lobster on 11/8/2011 12:07 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5735
Except that Blizzard has said that they want us to be less defensive, which we aren't if we have to waste all of our holy power on word of glorys to keep ourselves alive. A better solution would be to give offensive dispels either a 1.5-2 second cast time or a 10-15 second cooldown.

I agree with you, we SHOULD be less defensive, but at the moment we don't have that choice(as ret) with a snare resistance or a dispel immunity so you're not forced to really heal through the damage. The healing should still exist, because it'd be silly to be the only melee class without an instant heal of some kind.


we prolly did , except i cant figure out if uve been fighting afk people or training dummies.

So you were ret when people only wanted us for Kings? You're pretty snotty, you know that?
Edited by Layam on 11/9/2010 9:31 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
having support abilites for a group is great, except when u need to use them on urself to be able to fulfill your role, and even then... u barely can.


I dunno about you abut I'm pretty good at not dying in solo pvp. o_o

try without a healbot and come again. please fight good players, tho. dont want you to come back here thinking that u have some reliable results after testing against bads who got their wrathful after the rating reqs being removed.


I'm pretty sure I got my shoulders and tabard before 4.0 but I guess you're the expert here..?


- LOL WHAT?


You heard me. I can take my teammate from 10% to 50-60% or more depending on procs with a WoG crit. Can yours do that? Maybe that's why you die so often, because you're not supporting your team. :)
Edited by Lobster on 11/8/2011 1:16 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
7135
what the hell is seska talking about

I mean, seriously, are you high? Ret is definitely a superb support spec right now because Word of Glory is freaking incredible if you're specced right. I don't even have an active account and I know this.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
7280
I don't think anyone's on topic anymore. Everyone's just flexing their fake 2200 skill.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5735
I don't think anyone's on topic anymore. Everyone's just flexing their fake 2200 skill.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
I don't think anyone's on topic anymore. Everyone's just flexing their fake 2200 skill.


I agree we're off topic lol.

But I will say that yeah, we had a hard time killing good frost mages 1v1 even with LoS opportunities and even with magic Cleanse, however that just meant we had to rely more on our teammates in arena/BGs. As a support class, this shouldn't be a surprise.

Blizz didn't design this game intending each class to perfectly counter each other. There is no purely rambo class but certain paladin specs in the right gear were close. Thus the nerfs to defense, etc.

But since our defenses WERE nerfed, we still need a little bit of dispel protection. Blizz's idea of nerfing dispel was to increase the mana cost which obviously isn't working out at lvl80. But again, this game isn't balanced around lvl80 anymore. We'll have to see just how taxing dispel spam is at 85 in different gear with different abilities. Remember they are still tweaking stuff and they'll be tweaking stuff long after we've all hit 85.

I think the answer is to make certain core abilities and procs undispellable, such as Zealotry or our Hand of Light procs. Wings, bubble, and our Hand spells can already be dispelled, thus there's no reason our 31pt talent and our mastery should also be dispellable.
Edited by Lobster on 11/7/2011 6:26 PM PST
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
7280
I don't think anyone's on topic anymore. Everyone's just flexing their fake 2200 skill.

As much as I enjoy putting Seska in his place, I agree we're off topic lol.
But I will say that yeah, we had a hard time killing good frost mages 1v1 even with LoS opportunities and even with magic Cleanse, however that just meant we had to rely more on our teammates in arena/BGs. As a support class, this shouldn't be a surprise.
Blizz didn't design this game intending each class to perfectly counter each other. There is no purely rambo class but certain paladin specs in the right gear were close. Thus the nerfs to defense, etc.
But since our defenses WERE nerfed, we still need a little bit of dispel protection. Blizz's idea of nerfing dispel was to increase the mana cost which obviously isn't working out at lvl80. But again, this game isn't balanced around lvl80 anymore. We'll have to see just how taxing dispel spam is at 85 in different gear with different abilities. Remember they are still tweaking stuff and they'll be tweaking stuff long after we've all hit 85.
I think the answer is to make certain core abilities and procs undispellable, such as Zealotry or our Hand of Light procs. Wings, bubble, and our Hand spells can already be dispelled, thus there's no reason our 31pt talent and our mastery should also be dispellable.

Everyone seems to believe that our mastery is dispellable, clearly no one pays enough attention. Dispel spam isnt taxing at all at 85 because i play it. They intended on nerfing dispel spam yet they removed all the RNG from dispelling and all the trash buffs from dispelling. 1-2=-1.
Enhance shamans can literally spam it endlessly.
Priests have to throw 2 dispels to strip us completely.
Resto shamans can tank us with water shield. Our glyphed divine protection intended to defend us against casters is countered by casters.
Warlocks can leave fel hunter on us an entire game and it will smart dispel any major cooldown we have and in order to protect it we either have to waste a GCD on might, righeous fury, or 1 HP inquisition.
Don't get me started on mages
We've been turned into the least reliant to the most reliant since every pure dps has been given scaling self heals that cost either no GCD or no resource

With all our offensive abilities being able to be countered by pressing a dispel button we are forced to play defensively forever and we cannot put out any pressure outside of Hoj+cooldowns.
Edited by Jessicâalba on 11/9/2010 11:54 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115

Everyone seems to believe that our mastery is dispellable, clearly no one pays enough attention. Dispel spam isnt taxing at all at 85 because i play it.

Enhance shamans can literally spam it endlessly.

Priests have to throw 2 dispels to strip us completely.

Resto shamans can tank us with water shield. Our glyphed divine protection intended to defend us against casters is countered by casters.

Warlocks can leave fel hunter on us an entire game and it will smart dispel any major cooldown we have and in order to protect it we either have to waste a GCD on might, righeous fury, or 1 HP inquisition.

Don't get me started on mages


Don't get me wrong, rets absolutely have a lot of weaknesses against dispel classes. But then, anyone with self magic buffs are weakened by dispels. What's a resto druid without his hots or Barkskin? What's a mage without his barrier/shield/iceblock? Dispel shield/PainSup on a disc priest in a stun and he'll die with enough pressure. We've always been at risk from dispels but that just meant we had to play more carefully.

I don't think we should have dispel immunity for ALL our buffs, that would be overpowered. I even like the idea that wings and bubble are not guarantees. But our 31 pt talent? That NEEDS to be a non-magic buff. Maybe treat it like an Enrage? Then it's protected from dispels but can still be tranquilized.

The main thing is, Blizz doesn't want rets to be completely self-reliant and invulnerable so I doubt we'll get much dispel protection. I DO hope they implement some sort of "kharma" aspect to our abilities though but we probably won't see it until after Cata is released.

If mindless dispel spam is still a valid strat at 85 they'll increase the cost. It may take a little while, but they'll do something about it considering it was one of their main focal points when altering the specs.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
And I swear my mastery's been dispelled before. On at least 2 occasions I remember, I saw it light up then immediately go away before I did anything to spend it. Maybe it was a glitch, maybe it was briefly dispellable then hotfixed, idk.
Edited by Lobster on 11/7/2011 6:27 PM PST
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
7280

Everyone seems to believe that our mastery is dispellable, clearly no one pays enough attention. Dispel spam isnt taxing at all at 85 because i play it.

Enhance shamans can literally spam it endlessly.

Priests have to throw 2 dispels to strip us completely.

Resto shamans can tank us with water shield. Our glyphed divine protection intended to defend us against casters is countered by casters.

Warlocks can leave fel hunter on us an entire game and it will smart dispel any major cooldown we have and in order to protect it we either have to waste a GCD on might, righeous fury, or 1 HP inquisition.

Don't get me started on mages


Don't get me wrong, rets absolutely have a lot of weaknesses against dispel classes. But then, anyone with self magic buffs are weakened by dispels. What's a resto druid without his hots or Barkskin? What's a mage without his barrier/shield/iceblock? Dispel shield/PainSup on a disc priest in a stun and he'll die with enough pressure. We've always been at risk from dispels but that just meant we had to play more carefully.

I don't think we should have dispel immunity for ALL our buffs, that would be overpowered. I even like the idea that wings and bubble are not guarantees. But our 31 pt talent? That NEEDS to be a non-magic buff. Maybe treat it like an Enrage? Then it's protected from dispels but can still be tranquilized.

The main thing is, Blizz doesn't want rets to be completely self-reliant and invulnerable so I doubt we'll get much dispel protection. I DO hope they implement some sort of "kharma" aspect to our abilities though but we probably won't see it until after Cata is released.

If mindless dispel spam is still a valid strat at 85 they'll increase the cost. It may take a little while, but they'll do something about it considering it was one of their main focal points when altering the specs.


Those classes listed all do not rely on those things to do damage. Vs a mage if you're sitting their spam dispelling you're not doing damage because you're in a nova taking ice lances. Pain Sup has 65% resistance and its useable while stuns that has been dealt with. Dispel spamming on 65% resistance is something that has a huge risk given the implemented mana cost. Yet again you are misinformed. You have lost credibility yet again, you are basically posting out of your ass.

50% of our damage is holy and all of our burst is holy. Inquisition is dispellable and costs us our resource used to play offensively and defensively. Ive noticed they've made talents that cause DKs to regain runes when their diseases are dispelled. What about us? It's silly to think how much blizzard says and doesn't do.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
Those classes listed all do not rely on those things to do damage. Vs a mage if you're sitting their spam dispelling you're not doing damage because you're in a nova taking ice lances. Pain Sup has 65% resistance and its useable while stuns that has been dealt with. Dispel spamming on 65% resistance is something that has a huge risk given the implemented mana cost. Yet again you are misinformed. You have lost credibility yet again, you are basically posting out of your !@#.

50% of our damage is holy and all of our burst is holy. Inquisition is dispellable and costs us our resource used to play offensively and defensively. Ive noticed they've made talents that cause DKs to regain runes when their diseases are dispelled. What about us? It's silly to think how much blizzard says and doesn't do.


Whoa whoa! I'm not here to impress you. :P

And if you're not used to Blizz's broken promises by now I don't know what to tell you lol. I'm not arguing with you that we have problems being dispel spammed - that answer is pretty clear. But if these issues become so game-breaking that nobody plays ret anymore, Blizz WILL do something about it. In fact with their history they'll probably overcompensate us so hey, look forward to that. For now we'll just have to make do with what we have! And honestly we have a lot. :)

And my priest/shaman gets PainSup within a couple dispels every time. Maybe I'm lucky, idk.
Edited by Lobster on 11/7/2011 6:23 PM PST
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
7280
Those classes listed all do not rely on those things to do damage. Vs a mage if you're sitting their spam dispelling you're not doing damage because you're in a nova taking ice lances. Pain Sup has 65% resistance and its useable while stuns that has been dealt with. Dispel spamming on 65% resistance is something that has a huge risk given the implemented mana cost. Yet again you are misinformed. You have lost credibility yet again, you are basically posting out of your ass.

50% of our damage is holy and all of our burst is holy. Inquisition is dispellable and costs us our resource used to play offensively and defensively. Ive noticed they've made talents that cause DKs to regain runes when their diseases are dispelled. What about us? It's silly to think how much blizzard says and doesn't do.


Whoa whoa so feisty! Don't flatter yourself honey, I'm not here to impress you. :P

And if you're not used to Blizz's broken promises by now I don't know what to tell you lol. I'm not arguing with you that we have problems being dispel spammed - that answer is pretty clear. But if these issues become so game-breaking that nobody plays ret anymore, Blizz WILL do something about it. In fact with their history they'll probably overcompensate us so hey, look forward to that. For now we'll just have to make do with what we have! And honestly we have a lot. :)

And my priest/shaman gets PainSup within a couple dispels every time. Maybe I'm lucky, idk.


Who said I'm here to be impressed? I'm just "putting you in your place" right? Putting that other guy "in his place" then posting false information as if you knew what you were talking about ends up decaying the effectiveness of this thread.

Don't post without doing you're homework. It never helps the situation.

It just seems that blizz is using this time as a sociological experiment to drive out people from the ret spec yet it was never as good as holy or most classes for the matter in the first place. Less than a month left and the ret spec is extremely unpolished for pvp, the only class that can't dps because of the single most accessible counter in the game.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
Who said I'm here to be impressed? I'm just "putting you in your place" right? Putting that other guy "in his place" then posting false information as if you knew what you were talking about ends up decaying the effectiveness of this thread.

Don't post without doing you're homework. It never helps the situation.

It just seems that blizz is using this time as a sociological experiment to drive out people from the ret spec yet it was never as good as holy or most classes for the matter in the first place. Less than a month left and the ret spec is extremely unpolished for pvp, the only class that can't dps because of the single most accessible counter in the game.


Finding things to complain about when I'm trying to agree with you...?

Anyway my homework is what I've run into in world/arena/bg/duels. Duels don't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things since, as GC has said a few times now, the classes aren't balanced around 1v1 encounters. As rets we're never going to be super awesome against frost mages. With our new Cleanse we won't be relying on Freedom as much and maybe then Long Arm will be a more useful gap closer. As said, I'm sure if the dispel spam is totally out of control at 85 Blizz will do something about it.

In organized pvp you shouldn't have to 1v1 every opponent and you shouldn't charge into a group intending to rambo it up. It's not common to jump on the ret paladin, at least not in world/bg pvp. With focus being shifted to rated battlegrounds we'll see if we're as useless as you insist. Doom and gloom about rets all you want but honestly, post 4.0, things could be A LOT worse. We could be hunters! :o
Edited by Lobster on 11/7/2011 6:22 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
8235
Listen to Lobster, you'll be better for it.
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