Rets too Vulnerable to Dispel Mechanics

80 Blood Elf Paladin
7280
Who said I'm here to be impressed? I'm just "putting you in your place" right? Putting that other guy "in his place" then posting false information as if you knew what you were talking about ends up decaying the effectiveness of this thread.

Don't post without doing you're homework. It never helps the situation.

It just seems that blizz is using this time as a sociological experiment to drive out people from the ret spec yet it was never as good as holy or most classes for the matter in the first place. Less than a month left and the ret spec is extremely unpolished for pvp, the only class that can't dps because of the single most accessible counter in the game.


My my so confrontational little missy, finding things to complain about when I'm trying to agree with you. Can't say I mind it but only because you're a qt. <3

Anyway my homework is what I've run into in world/arena/bg/duels. Duels don't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things since, as GC has said a few times now, the classes aren't balanced around 1v1 encounters. As rets we're never going to be super awesome against frost mages. With our new Cleanse we won't be relying on Freedom as much and maybe then Long Arm will be a more useful gap closer. As said, I'm sure if the dispel spam is totally out of control at 85 Blizz will do something about it.

In organized pvp you shouldn't have to 1v1 every opponent and you shouldn't charge into a group intending to rambo it up. It's not common to jump on the ret paladin, at least not in world/bg pvp. With focus being shifted to rated battlegrounds we'll see if we're as useless as you insist. Doom and gloom about rets all you want but honestly, post 4.0, things could be A LOT worse. We could be hunters! :o


While the cleanse change is 100% nessecary, it is left unfixed so proper testing cannot be done. My arguement of us being useless is that we are just there for our 40k word crits and that's it as it currently stands. A dps responsible to make the best of his resource when the best possible option is to heal for half a teammates healthbar rather than dealing maybe 10% noncrit on someone. Our viability currently revolves around outlasting until an oppurtunity arises which is the design blizzard wanted to stray against with the mana changes. I was doing 2v2 with a rank 1 mage and everytime we fought a warrior his self healing almost solod both of us. One time he was whispering someone behind a pillar, and I had every offensive cooldown popped against a warrior, I was forced to play defensive while he outhealed my dmg with second wind and bloodcraze. Both abilities that are reactive to gcds spent by the opponent. Both abilities that scale extremely well.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115

While the cleanse change is 100% nessecary, it is left unfixed so proper testing cannot be done. My arguement of us being useless is that we are just there for our 40k word crits and that's it as it currently stands. A dps responsible to make the best of his resource when the best possible option is to heal for half a teammates healthbar rather than dealing maybe 10% noncrit on someone. Our viability currently revolves around outlasting until an oppurtunity arises which is the design blizzard wanted to stray against with the mana changes. I was doing 2v2 with a rank 1 mage and everytime we fought a warrior his self healing almost solod both of us. One time he was whispering someone behind a pillar, and I had every offensive cooldown popped against a warrior, I was forced to play defensive while he outhealed my dmg with second wind and bloodcraze. Both abilities that are reactive to gcds spent by the opponent. Both abilities that scale extremely well.


I definitely agree with you about warrior healing. It's insane how well it scales. I think the rogue heal is crazy too considering how easy the class is now. Unless it's an extremely well-geared healer no class should be able to one-button outheal that much damage. I'm hoping Blizz realizes this and scales back non-healer healing across the board, ideally before release but soon(tm) is more likely.

Ret damage is an issue at 85 but the Blues did say classes were supposed to scale well with better gear. If you're out there in blues/greens right now damage is probably going to suck. It shouldn't suck SO much that a warrior in similar gear outheals everything you do, absolutely not, and that's something they'll have to tweak.

But it seems like they're still messing with base damage for a lot of ret abilities. Here we are a couple weeks from Cataclysm and they still aren't sure what to do with Divine Storm. =/ With that said I think there's a chance we'll get some more love before release. /fingerscrossed

There's supposed to be some special rated BG testing with the developers this week as I recall. Once they're in the fray maybe they'll understand our issues with healing/damage balance a little more.

Buuut maybe they'll all roll mages... "Team Icelance" lol. D:
Edited by Lobster on 11/7/2011 4:37 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
I do, however, like it being a static cd. like 15 or 30 seconds would be decent. I don't care if my spells are removed from me. I do care about how often they are in fact removed.


I think that would be an interesting answer to the "kharma" idea as dispel protection - static cds. They won't put dispel on a 2m CD ever but maybe a 6-10sec UA style lockout or silence could work for dispelling wings.
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90 Human Paladin
12130
How about an ICD debuff where you can't dispel/purge for a certain amount of time for each target. In this way you can still dispel/purge 10 peeps but takes care of spam per individual. Just a thought but 100% that it won't happen, lol.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14140
I had a kinda funny idea last night when talking to a friend about this subject, and while there are probably some serious flaws to it, I figured I'd at least toss it out for peer review: make it so that ret paladins, and maybe prot too, have as part of their spec bonuses an effect that makes it so that when a dispel is cast upon them instead of the spell actually going away, it takes some time away from the duration. that way dispels are still effective as a way of lowering the power of the pally spell, but the pally can still use the ability without knowing that it's going to be gone the moment they cast it.
Edited by Volkrin on 11/10/2010 5:13 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
2130
You know, it's time dispels were put on Diminishing Returns as well. At least, offensive dispels.

Volkrin that's a cool idea.

Alternatively: Some Paladin buffs don't count as "Magic" when cast on the Paladin himself.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5735
What if spell stealing/dispelling a paladin created a negative effect? I was thinking about it, I understand the need to let us have weaknesses. This way everything can be spell stolen or dispelled but we're not left gimped. Like spell stealing/dispelling wings, reduces your damage by 10%, removing hand of freedom keeps the person restrained in place(Blink and snare breaking abilities are allowed)

Hell replace eye for an eye with this.

We lose hand of freedom, but you get snared. We lose wings and your damage output goes down. Lose righteous fury you take more damage, etc etc
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9105
What if spell stealing/dispelling a paladin created a negative effect?


Yeah, we've only been suggesting something like this since, what, the Lich King beta? Earlier?
Pretty much as soon as the lash back on UA for 'locks was introduced.
There's only been about fifty threads on the beta about this.

Hell replace eye for an eye with this.


Signed a billion times over. Seriously. E4aE has sucked so hard so unbelievably long... and now they've returned vanilla E4aE? Colour me perplexed.

Also, anyone else amused that E4aE is a better raiding/PvE talent than a PvP one?
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85 Draenei Paladin
4305
I fully agree with you.

In fact, since the patch, I avoid attacking caster altogether unless I have a healer on me in a Battleground. There's two reasons: Fear and Polymorph seem to not have cooldowns, and Mages are now "stealing" my Avenging Wrath. This wouldn't have been such a problem before the patch, except for the fact that Avenging Wrath now allows me to cast Hammer of Wrath up to 3 times in it's duration. I watch that cooldown like a hawk for 2 whole minutes, only to have it utterly "stolen" and used against me.

Other than the suggestion made by the author of this debate, I think making Turn Evil usable as a counter CC ability would make the Ret Pally's relationship with casters perfectly fair. As well as removing it's limitation of only working on Minions and Imps (in PvP of course) You can even slap a 1 minute cooldown on it for good measure, but I need to be able to defend myself from Fear spamming Warlocks.

The mechanic would be simple, When I get Feared all my buttons turn black instead of my trinkets and my Turn Evil ability. If Turn Evil is available, then I can counter the Fear and apply it to the caster, in the same way he took my Wings. Remember, this whould apply to Polymorph too.

Also, Make Fear last longer so I can actually have time to grab some Starbucks before I can start playing again, or at least a quick bathroom break. ;)

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