Old Horde Vs. The Current Horde

100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
A while back I was discussing with some people who didn't like the Horde as it was today and prefered the old Horde - the Horde as it was back in Warcraft 1 and 2. I was arguing that the Horde as it is today is better because it has more depth and more interesting stories, while they were saying it was good when the Horde didn't have any semblence of morals, as it allowed them to be more 'badass evil' and helped better to establish the Alliance as righteous protagonists (obviously it was very pro-Alliance supporters who were saying this).

So my question to the story forums is this: did you like the old Horde (Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde) better than the Horde in it's current state (the Horde from Warcraft 3 onwards), and why so? Some things to take into account when discussing are the goals and beliefs of the two versions, their moral nature, the races that comprised of them, the leadership figures and their relationship to the Alliance.
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85 Troll Priest
5800
I dont see the old horde as a viable faction in the model that WoW has. To have them be the old horde you would basicly need a model more like Warhammer online where the two factions were completely seperate and their was no neutral parties meaning the Old horde would be siding with the likes of Deathwing or the BL.

The problem with that is two fold. First it doesnt work as well with a MMO with such a strong PvE element. As a PvP MMO its fantastic as long as your not too concerned over story development. Basicly you need alot more content to accomidate for both factions being completely different and not sharing any quests or factions. This means less content for players over all.

Secondly, its very hard to have the story progress with such a model. Any major victory lore wise by either side instantly causes imbalance in the game which undermines the functionality of the factions. Just look how much anger has been caused by the perception (right or otherwise) that the Allaince is getting short changed.

People dont want to play on a side that is scripted to lose regardless of what they do. This means the story is forced to either break critical balance in the game or stagnate and get boring. People would be complaining that they never acheived anything against their enemies.
For story telling the Old horde just wouldnt work. Theres just no way I can see them doing it in a fashion that satisfied players and kept the strong PvE element the game has.

On a more personal note I didnt like the Old Horde. If they recharacterised the Horde races to fit it they would be alot more boring. Tauren, Trolls and even Orcs are far more interesting cause they arent just generic fantasy fare. They actually have some depth to their culture and society. You can actually identify with them.

Ive actually met very few horde players who like the idea of the horde being like the old horde. Oddly Ive met quite a few Alliance players who would prefer it that way though. Then again the venom desplayed towards the horde by some dedicated alliance players startled me the first time I was exposed to it. Im yet to meet a hordie who actually hates the Alliance to the same extent(Note Im saying faction not players. Ive met plenty of hordies who are jerks towards players who play the other side.)
Edited by Sikuti on 11/7/2010 10:26 PM PST
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74 Blood Elf Paladin
7825
Old Horde was pretty much what you see in a kids show or what i fear the Horde might turn into in the Warcraft Movie.
I mean how to sum up the Old Horde...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COFMBR7gbhg

Out of all the MMOs i've played. The New Horde (aka the "bad" guys to any outsider) have been the most dynamic faction.
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85 Human Paladin
6250
Old Horde - Kinda boring.
New Horde - More interesting
Dark Horde - Very interested.
Fel Horde - Holy %#^@ where did these guys come from?!!! This is awesome!!!
Dwarf Horde - The world is boned.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
Old Horde - Kinda boring.
New Horde - More interesting
Dark Horde - Very interested.
Fel Horde - Holy %#^@ where did these guys come from?!!! This is awesome!!!
Dwarf Horde - The world is boned.


The Dwarf Horde would challenge the other races to a drinking contest.

Then kill them when they're all passed out.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
WC2 Horde was "good" because we were unrepentant engines of destruction, which is -great- for about five minutes and all but then it gets -boring- in mmos.

Thralls horde was good in theory but portrayed poorly, there was alot of "why the hell are we fighting if we're not actually at war? Why -aren't- we at war?" going on in vanilla wow.

Garroshs horde fits better overall but still needs minor issues tweaked and clarified, but i still find it the most compelling.

---
Side note: If there's the "Old horde" ; "dark horde"; "new horde" ; and "fel horde" ; then what's garrosh's Horde? Still the 'new horde'? Personally i'd dub it the "iron Horde"

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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
WC2 Horde was "good" because we were unrepentant engines of destruction, which is -great- for about five minutes and all but then it gets -boring- in mmos.

Thralls horde was good in theory but portrayed poorly, there was alot of "why the hell are we fighting if we're not actually at war? Why -aren't- we at war?" going on in vanilla wow.

Garroshs horde fits better overall but still needs minor issues tweaked and clarified, but i still find it the most compelling.

---
Side note: If there's the "Old horde" ; "dark horde"; "new horde" ; and "fel horde" ; then what's garrosh's Horde? Still the 'new horde'? Personally i'd dub it the "iron Horde"


Personally I consider this part of the 'New Horde,' just a different era of the new Horde. Kind of like how I consider the Horde from WC1 and 2 the same, despite the fact they had different Warchiefs between each game. Perhaps dubbing them with titles depending on more defined eras would be better, but I'm just dividing it in two for simplicity's sake.

The simple fact is, the Warcraft 1 and 2 Horde were very different groups compared to the WC3 Horde onward. Even today with Garrosh, the basis of his Horde is built off the Horde that Thrall reforged in WC3. His ideals may be more akin to the Hordes of old, but he still has to contend with the society that Thrall build under his reign.
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100 Human Mage
9210
The only reason I like the Old Horde, compared to the New Horde, is that they never really lied to themselves. They knew exactly who they were, what they were doing, and sought no excuses or justification. The Old Horde never lived a lie, pretending to be something they're not.

The New Horde, at least, has some good story, but I've begun to feel it's wasted on them. That's not exactly due to anything with the New Horde either, but more to due with lack of proper in-game Alliance development. The Horde can get as polished as it wants, but when it has a mostly inactive enemy... Can't really fight a war without someone to fight against. We really should see some Orcs in the stormwind zones, Forsaken in Duskwood, Trolls in Dun Morogh, etc...
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85 Orc Shaman
5885
The new Horde doesn't lie to themselves either, people just have different interpretations of different actions.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
7170
The only reason I like the Old Horde, compared to the New Horde, is that they never really lied to themselves. They knew exactly who they were, what they were doing, and sought no excuses or justification. The Old Horde never lived a lie, pretending to be something they're not.


See, I don't think the New Horde is 'lying' to themselves, so much as they have conflicting ideals within their ranks. We have characters like Thrall and Saurfang and Cairne who believe the Horde should live peacefully and show restraint when dealing with enemies like the Alliance. Then we have characters like Garrosh and Sylvanas who take a more 'might makes right' and conquest-oriented approach to their leadership. And again, even Garrosh and Sylvanas are conflicted on how they approach their similar ideals.

As an example, it's like any country with a democratic leadership. There'll always be at least two parties with differing ideals, and different people will support different groups. If the group they want is in power and acting in the way they want, of course they'll go 'yeah, that's what my country stands for!' But if the party they don't want is in charge, or even if the party they want is but they're leading in a way they don't like, of course they'll try and disown the party and say 'this isn't what my country stands for.' To me, this is where the problem (and story interest) with the Horde lies: the struggle between those who want peace, and those who worship war.

The New Horde, at least, has some good story, but I've begun to feel it's wasted on them. That's not exactly due to anything with the New Horde either, but more to due with lack of proper in-game Alliance development. The Horde can get as polished as it wants, but when it has a mostly inactive enemy... Can't really fight a war without someone to fight against. We really should see some Orcs in the stormwind zones, Forsaken in Duskwood, Trolls in Dun Morogh, etc...


I agree with the idea of putting more Horde forces in Alliance zones, but I don't feel the Horde is any more or less ineffectual because of the Alliance. It's more the approach they take to treating the Alliance that defines them. Likewise, the problem with the Alliance is that if they're ineffectual in dealing with the Horde, that reflects more on them than the Horde.
Edited by Killchrono on 11/8/2010 8:19 AM PST
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100 Dwarf Paladin
12355
The new Horde doesn't lie to themselves either, people just have different interpretations of different actions.


No, they just have excuses.

"We need lumber! But, we suck at diplomacy and those Night Elves called us names, so, we're gonna take their forests and kill them all!"
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100 Human Mage
9210
See, in my mind, the Horde lies to itself, and the world, about itself. Thrall spent how many years, preaching that it had been changed, only to be proved a liar when Varian attacked Undercity and saw for himself that the Horde were committing acts just as bad, if not worse, than what they did during the Second War? All that talk of peace, and yet there is a -long- list of crimes the Horde committed against the Alliance between the Third Wars and then? It screams Hypocrisy.

As for the Alliance dealing with the Horde, I would say it's fairly effective at that. For the most part, the Alliance is going for the jugular, what with taking parts of the barrens and Ashenvale. The problem a lot of alliance players have with that, is that we're ignoring other areas that are important, such as Hillsbrad or Gilneas and the likes.

If anything though, I'd think the Alliance needs a catalyst to move forward in it's own story in a manner. It's still in that Warcraft 2 mode. It needs to enter the present somehow.
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85 Orc Shaman
5885
*shrug* As I said, it's a matter of perception. From the outside, yeah it looks like they've been lying to the world and that view makes sense with regards to the Undercity. But the Forsaken have always been a rogue element in the Horde (there's a reason they start of neutral to everyone), really only following the Horde's order when it was convenient for them, or when they were forced to (post Wrathgate). And they still don't follow the orders of the Horde really even in Cataclysm despite the tighter rules, as the Worgen starting zone shows.

Aside from the Forsaken I'd say the Horde is nothing like the previous incarnation and is not lying to themselves. They are generally more peaceful and not likely to go on rambpages across the countryside just because they want to. Even in Cataclysm with the various fighting going on (and I don't know specifics, been staying away form that), there is a reason, which is a lack of resources to keep themselves going. they could try to get that through diplomacy, but as people should realize form the real world that doesn't always work.

People tend to look at Garrosh and think "Man, he's bringing the Orcs back to the way they were in Warcraft 1 and 2!" when he's really not. He's more apt to fight and act rashly than Thrall, but that's a character flaw that he shares with his father and not a return to anything in the past. The Horde is still Thrall's Horde, and Thrall would have still had to go to war with the Alliance to keep the Horde alive due to the resource problem if diplomacy failed (which the Twilight hammer were extremely keen on preventing).
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The new Horde doesn't lie to themselves either, people just have different interpretations of different actions.


No, they just have excuses.

"We need lumber! But, we suck at diplomacy and those Night Elves called us names, so, we're gonna take their forests and kill them all!"


I think you mean "those Night Elves shot at us, so we're gonna fight back". The Night Elves are the ones who refused to do so much as fire a warning shot with a note attached saying 'GTFO'.
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100 Human Mage
9210
The new Horde doesn't lie to themselves either, people just have different interpretations of different actions.


No, they just have excuses.

"We need lumber! But, we suck at diplomacy and those Night Elves called us names, so, we're gonna take their forests and kill them all!"


I think you mean "those Night Elves shot at us, so we're gonna fight back". The Night Elves are the ones who refused to do so much as fire a warning shot with a note attached saying 'GTFO'.


I think this has been talked through to Death.

You start with Orcs moving in and clear cutting the forest. They ignores the vague warnings of the elves (the ghostly laughter that spooked them), and then were attacked. Granted, Thrall put this aside and formed a truce with the Night Elves to save the World Tree. All should have been great then. The Orcs naturally would move out of Ashenvale to respect their newfound allies, right? Even if they aren't allies, certainly these new, peaceful, noble Orcs wouldn't just go back to deforesting lands that aren't theirs?

What's that? They did? Huh...
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230

I think this has been talked through to Death.

You start with Orcs moving in and clear cutting the forest. They ignores the vague warnings of the elves (the ghostly laughter that spooked them), and then were attacked. Granted, Thrall put this aside and formed a truce with the Night Elves to save the World Tree. All should have been great then. The Orcs naturally would move out of Ashenvale to respect their newfound allies, right? Even if they aren't allies, certainly these new, peaceful, noble Orcs wouldn't just go back to deforesting lands that aren't theirs?

What's that? They did? Huh...


We couldn't possibly have done it out of necessity cause a certain human group clearcut the trees in durotar.

Nope.

No freakin way that could've happened.

That's -nonsense-. The orcs are TOTALLY doing to spite the elves like that one angry elf says, work doesn't slow down or pile up when you kill the workers, that is -ridiculous-
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100 Human Paladin
10570
I haven't leveled through Ashenvale as Horde but isn't there a quest where the Orcs outright say they don't need the lumber and they are still logging to infuriate the Night Elves?
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