Proving Ground's NPC party is horrid...

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90 Pandaren Priest
14930
09/18/2013 10:30 PMPosted by Kaels
i did it day1 and got gold... people just suck

Either read the thread or stop trolling. It was easier on day 1; there was a hotfix on day 2 that broke the NPC AI.

Also, gold is still perfectly doable, if perhaps a bit harder than it should be. Endless is where there's a real problem.


Don't engage, Kaels.
90 Pandaren Shaman
8635
You truly do have to be an elitist to get this. And I mean gemming, reforging, abusing talents, etc.... Just everything you can to force yourself not to eventually get oom or have spike damage that can one-shot the tank. You have to be perfect with everything. Its insanity to think several people got this with the weak npc AIs.


Do those things really seem "elitist" to you? To me, that sounds like the fun of the challenge. Realizing that talent A is better than talent B at that gear level, figuring out how to best use your CDs in order to save mana, learning to work around players who stand in mechanics - all of those ideas are realistic.

My advice to anyone having difficulties:
  • Focus on your mana and question every action you make. (E.g., Would it save more mana to stun the mobs or heal the tank? Would it save more mana to use my Spirit Shell now, or in 30 seconds?)
  • It's super important to try different talents/glyphs as well. I abused Glyph of Telluric Currents as much as I could. Even went so far as to plan when I'd let the tank use Shield Wall so that I could continue casting Lightning Bolt for mana return.
  • Explore all options. (Come to think of it.. I never really used Hex. Hmm...)
  • Edited by Caix on 9/19/2013 2:29 AM PDT
    90 Night Elf Druid
    11580
    To hell with AI adjustments. Are they going to do more DPS or do we still have to deal with overlapping waves?


    I don't mind some overlapping waves, but when a mob from wave 8 is still up when wave 10 spawns, that's just... stupid. Now I don't mind tossing out Typhoons and Bashes, but is this some kind of hint that I need to help my inept party DPS too? If I wanted to dps, I'd just do that challenge.

    I am looking forward to the hotfixes though and hope that it addresses some of the major concerns here.
    90 Troll Druid
    10000
    To hell with AI adjustments. Are they going to do more DPS or do we still have to deal with overlapping waves?


    AI includes things like spell selection, which will hopefully include AoE, as it previously did.
    90 Troll Druid
    19500
    I can reach wave 16 with some luck. Then everything goes to hell. 90% of the enemies casts don't get interrupted. As a druid I don't have many reliable spells to stop enemy casts; just bash, typhoon and sometimes maim.

    If blizzard made your party members just a tad bit smarter I would be happy because as of right now these "dps" are some of the worst I have ever seen.

    Also someone tell the mage to stop trolling me with his time warp.
    100 Blood Elf Priest
    12595
    Do those things really seem "elitist" to you? To me, that sounds like the fun of the challenge. Realizing that talent A is better than talent B at that gear level, figuring out how to best use your CDs in order to save mana, learning to work around players who stand in mechanics - all of those ideas are realistic.

    Yep, all of those are fine, and realistic, and many of us are happy to do them.

    The primary objections I have are:


    • In its current state, this challenge seems to be very much balanced around utility. My class has inarguably and overwhelmingly less utility than the other 4 healing classes; I have no stun, no interrupt (Chastise doesn't cause a spell lockout, so they start casting again as soon as the daze is broken), no silence, no knockback, no disarm, and no DPS cooldown aside from the one linked to my regen cooldown. My one and only CC (which only works on two mob types) is instantly broken by damage, and one of the mobs I can CC is programmed to be the focus target while the other is practically irrelevant. And my DPS is pathetic and expensive unless I gimp my healing for 30 seconds.
    • The difficulty varies enormously from one attempt to the next. I can play 10 attempts in a row with exactly the same strategy (I've completely choreographed my routine by now). My worst attempt might fail on wave 4 with a double Chomp on the tank at low health (and him claiming he's dead after I Void Shift him); my average attempt probably fails on wave 8 or 9 with one of the DPS getting hammered by fireballs while the tank is still getting eaten alive by wave 8 mobs with a Chomp still on him that I can't get off until they're dead; and my best attempt might make it all the way to wave 18 because neither of those things happens on the first round or on wave 14.
    • The utility I mentioned in the first point is the only effective way to mitigate the RNG factor. And priests don't have it. If we get lucky, it's entirely possible to go for 30 rounds, but if the stars don't align, we fail, not because of our own skill or mana management or anything, but because we just don't have a way to prevent or respond to certain RNG combinations of events.
    100 Dwarf Shaman
    10430
    I got bronze, silver, and gold on the first try for each (on Sunday, so after it became more difficult). Endless is definitely much more difficult than gold. I think I wiped on wave 5 or 6 on my first try. It took quite a few tries to get through wave 10. So far my high is 2100 something points and I've spent several hours working on it. I've been making decent progress though so hopefully I'll get the title some time this weekend.

    I think most people are upset because they have found out that they aren't as good as they thought they were. It sucks to be humbled, but quitting until it gets nerfed won't get you anywhere. It is supposed to be difficult. Keep trying.
    100 Blood Elf Priest
    12595
    09/19/2013 06:05 AMPosted by Taughror
    I think most people are upset because they have found out that they aren't as good as they thought they were.

    Not me.

    I had no problem being stuck on Gold wave 6 until I realized "hey, I probably need more than 5k Spirit in here," because I could get to that point every time.

    I was totally happy to blame myself for not being able to get past Endless wave 8-9 until someone told me 'hey, use Void Tendrils and maybe the mages will target them instead of party members,' because I could get to that point most of the time, and I knew I wasn't handling certain early mechanics perfectly. (It kind of pissed me off that that was the solution, though, because it's sort of like "here's some RNG to mitigate your RNG.")

    I'm now at the point where my success is no longer being determined by my skill - where I have wildly varying success on different attempts simply depending on who the mobs decide to target.

    Some attempts are virtually impossible - the tank gets double Chomped three times, or the wave 9 flamecasters literally instakill the mage. Nothing I can do about that. Also not much I can do when Oto just randomly decides he's dead at 75% health because he would have dipped below 10% if I hadn't void shifted him.

    Other attempts I sail through until I actually do hit the point where I'm no longer confident that I'm doing everything as well as a priest can. But those are rare - maybe 1 in 20. And even them most of the time what gets me is an RNG oneshot.

    Most attempts are somewhere between the two; the RNG is bad, but not bad enough to cause an insta-fail, so I limp through bleeding mana that I wouldn't have had to spend if I played a class that had utility, or even one that had decent AoE healing and single target healing at the same time.
    Edited by Kaels on 9/19/2013 6:37 AM PDT
    90 Undead Monk
    13330
    Title is easy, just help CC and kick and you win.

    And if you're Forsaken (master race), make sure to help dps so you can Cannibalize between sets of 10 rounds.
    Edited by Hariko on 9/19/2013 8:12 AM PDT
    100 Blood Elf Priest
    12595
    Title is easy, just help CC and kick and you win

    Hi. I'm a holy priest. Nice to meet you. Perhaps you'd like to help me find my kick button.
    Edited by Kaels on 9/19/2013 8:12 AM PDT
    90 Pandaren Monk
    12990
    [quote="100132704329"]
    I had no problem being stuck on Gold wave 6 until I realized "hey, I probably need more than 5k Spirit in here," because I could get to that point every time.

    I'm now at the point where my success is no longer being determined by my skill - where I have wildly varying success on different attempts simply depending on who the mobs decide to target.

    Some attempts are virtually impossible - the tank gets double Chomped three times, or the wave 9 flamecasters literally instakill the mage. Nothing I can do about that. Also not much I can do when Oto just randomly decides he's dead at 75% health because he would have dipped below 10% if I hadn't void shifted him.


    Aye, this is where I'm at I think. I got Gold first try no probs and was really screwing up sometimes on Endless, and I'm more than willing to admit I have some room for improvement. i also notice *some* things are getting better (Renewing Mists seems to be bouncing again, Mage interrupts sometimes, Rogue interrupts a lot, ect), but what's up with the oneshots and terrible rng that is literally out of my hands? There's SO much of it. Double chomp on the mage, or 2-3 Pyroblasts, or mobs from the previous wave still up when the next is well underway. And I'm a Monk who can actually use stuns and interrupts. What do you expect Priests to do regarding CC, Blizzard? I still made Wave...17? On Endless. I'm gonna try again tonight and see if i can go higher.

    It would be really nice to account for all the various healer strengths, weaknesses, and mechanics while doing these fights though, you know. As realistic as it is for my random party members to completely ignore my GotS spheres and break my CC and do agonizingly terrible DPS just like Heroic 5 mans, i would prefer these NPCs to actually not emulate that so perfectly, especially when it's supposed to be about what I'm doing wrong.
    90 Troll Priest
    6525
    Hi. I'm a holy priest. Nice to meet you. Perhaps you'd like to help me find my kick button.


    You left it @Tortos.
    90 Pandaren Priest
    14930
    Title is easy, just help CC and kick and you win.

    And if you're Forsaken (master race), make sure to help dps so you can Cannibalize between sets of 10 rounds.


    Hi. I'm a Holy Priest. Can you show me where to find my Kick button? Oh, and my CC button? I don't have poly. I can't Cyclone. The adds are immune to Fear. I can root them occasionally (but they break the roots themselves by killing them). Exactly how am I supposed to CC and kick, hm?
    100 Tauren Druid
    13740
    I am truly annoyed that I will have to go refarm 463 equipment to do this properly. The stat descaling for some items and trinkets... really

    I have close to 12k spirit with 2 regen trinkets and it drops me to 5k spirit?
    My on use trinket works, my proc trinket... not proccing as far as I can tell

    I cannot smite heal to dps and heal essentially a 2 for 1 return
    No free heals, chakra - hopo - Chi (clearcasting is so random due to no crit that it may as well not exist)
    Come on toolboxes for druid - really most of my stuff relies on others
    I can use bash and snap stomp but I have to stay in melee range
    I suck my mana pool dry healing chomp - Hot's not so good
    I am over 50k hps for 7 waves before going oom.
    8k spirit instead of 5k will fix it. I know it
    However regrinding 463 gear not happening in the near future

    Yeah I can get gold, but they made it real pita to do so.

    So call me bad but I'll keep rolling 100~150k hps and keeping everyone up in raids.

    PS did I mention innervate now scales with spirit... /rolleyes

    Grabs soapbox and stomps off
    100 Gnome Monk
    16090
    09/19/2013 08:19 AMPosted by Thaimaishu
    Renewing Mists seems to be bouncing again


    Thank the Titans! I'm not much of a Light worshiper.

    09/19/2013 08:19 AMPosted by Thaimaishu
    What do you expect Priests to do regarding CC, Blizzard?


    As I said in a previous thread, the spirit of PG seems to be Sean Connery pointing at certain specs (in this case both disc and holy priests) saying "You chose ... poorly." Of course people here seem to miss the obvious sarcasm so I'll just say that's a poor choice of spirit.

    As realistic as it is for my random party members to completely ignore my GotS spheres and break my CC and do agonizingly terrible DPS just like Heroic 5 mans, i would prefer these NPCs to actually not emulate that so perfectly, especially when it's supposed to be about what I'm doing wrong.


    I agree with this, especially the CC, but I'm not sure how to make monk mastery actually work. It's pretty tricky to make it not perfect yet not horrid.

    I guess there could be an RNG component if the NPC gets below say 50% health they have x% chance to think "Oh, I should pick up a sphere!" While it might hurt their dps slightly and make waves longer than intended at least we can fistweave a little to help correct that.
    90 Undead Priest
    15125
    Title is easy, just help CC and kick and you win.

    And if you're Forsaken (master race), make sure to help dps so you can Cannibalize between sets of 10 rounds.


    Hi. I'm a Holy Priest. Can you show me where to find my Kick button? Oh, and my CC button? I don't have poly. I can't Cyclone. The adds are immune to Fear. I can root them occasionally (but they break the roots themselves by killing them). Exactly how am I supposed to CC and kick, hm?
    I haven't tried it yet, but I wonder if we could get a druid to symbiosis us to pick up cyclone? Not sure if it would stick when we queued into PG, but might be worth a shot.

    Even if it works, it's a pretty crappy situation where we have to go beg a tree to give us even a bare minimum of CC.
    90 Draenei Priest
    11815
    hunter ai was not realistic enough. He will now stand in fire until dead while mage chain casts AB with a drinking bird and goes afk.


    LOL!

    Glad to hear about the changes though, woot. Was giving it a go again last night and face palming.
    100 Blood Elf Priest
    12595
    09/19/2013 08:38 AMPosted by Lonebull
    chakra

    Why do people keep mentioning Chakra as if it were a good thing?

    "You have to heal with one hand tied behind your back, but you get to choose which hand. Or we can tie them both behind your back, but then you can headbutt people."

    You do not not not not not want Chakra in PG. Holy !@#$ it makes me so angry.
    90 Undead Priest
    15125
    09/19/2013 10:11 AMPosted by Kaels
    chakra

    Why do people keep mentioning Chakra as if it were a good thing?

    "You have to heal with one hand tied behind your back, but you get to choose which hand. Or we can tie them both behind your back, but then you can headbutt people."

    You do not not not not not want Chakra in PG. Holy !@#$ it makes me so angry.
    Yeah I tried PG as holy for a bit after getting frustrated with disc, but the chakra mechanic sent me crawling right back to disc. Frankly it's kept me from embracing holy for several tiers now. The pvp set bonus ought to be baseline, or better yet the mechanic should be scrapped.
    90 Troll Druid
    10000
    Some attempts are virtually impossible - the tank gets double Chomped three times, or the wave 9 flamecasters literally instakill the mage


    Wave 8 is the flamecallers - not sure if you meant that RNG or the hive singer + chomp at the start of wave 9, which is also quite deadly.

    There are a couple things you can do about the latter situation, if that is the case. Hivesingers are vulnerable to fear, and their sonic burst is range-limited (as is the tunneler chomp). You can run over to fear it, which I don't recommend, since it typically means that after the tunneler dies, dps focus the aqualyte instead of the hivesinger, meaning you have more overall damage to deal with on the wave. You can also lifegrip one of your ranged away from the middle, so there's no RNG on whether it goes out on the mage or hunter, and just make sure the other one is topped off+has a shield.

    In all honesty, though, that transition is one of a few reasons I much prefer disc over holy, because I can spirit shell it. Disc is also better at using absorbs to prevent Oto from using shield wall on wave 4, which leaves him vulnerable to the enrage on wave 5. And, well, it's really nice not being limited by DI rng (unless you're running tof as holy which is also fine), having the ability to pop AA on demand, and having more mana-efficient damage.

    I am truly annoyed that I will have to go refarm 463 equipment to do this properly. The stat descaling for some items and trinkets... really


    Actually, if I were to make a BiS list for proving grounds, it probably would not include any ilvl 463 gear. A 463 ilvl piece with a given stat distribution will have identical stats in PG/CM as a 566 ilvl piece with the same stat distribution. However, gem sockets + item bonuses are 'overbudget' - using pieces with the most sockets will give you more overall stats than not. There may be a couple pieces (bracers, helm) that have slightly better stat allocations without dropping a gem slot as 463s, but the difference will be very small.

    If you find yourself going OoM, you either lack throughput or are not being efficient enough.
    Edited by Frozenorange on 9/19/2013 10:36 AM PDT
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