Diablo® III

Why Hardcore in D3 is the way to go

10/23/2013 11:27 AMPosted by HermitBoy
Theodore Roosevelt once said “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty.”


I play games for fun, not to prove my self worth.
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10/23/2013 11:27 AMPosted by HermitBoy
Theodore Roosevelt once said “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty.”


I made a cute girl smile from a stupid joke. It was both easy and worth having. I don't find things to be enjoyable just because it was a tedious, painful experience to obtain.

10/23/2013 11:27 AMPosted by HermitBoy
Unfortunately, all effort, pain, and difficulty was removed from D3 Softcore by being able to respec without cost, not being able to assign stats, and even having almost no cost to dying.


Effort and difficulty is still there in the form of combat, as it should be. Pain? That should never be part of a game. Ever.
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Yeah, can't agree with lag/disconnects making things interesting. Sure it is going to happen, and its part of HC, but there is nothing to learn from it, and no sense of honor.

I have died multiple times due to my own inexperience, stupidity, or lack of preparation. Each time, I have learned something or gained experience I can use next time. Its sad to lose a good HC character, but there is some maturity that comes when that happens.

But when you die due to lag or disconnect, I do not get that feeling. Its too arbitrary. And I don't think there is much of anything you can do to protect against it.

I have really good internet, and have died only once due to a disconnect. It happened when Blizzard's servers went down. I was in a group of 4, and we were just about done rescuing the citizens in the city in Act II just before we fought Belial. I had a group right behind me, and I was on my way back when the disconnect happened. It did not even worry me at all because I figured I was about as safe as you could be. In a group with others, not a really dangerous area, no monsters were around me at the time, I had good equipment, and was just about to finish the quest. I figured someone in my group finished after I lost connection, and then I would have been safe.

I walked away, and a couple hours later when I went back, I was dead. I could not believe it. There was nothing I could have done to prepare for that, and no lessons that I learned. Nothing I could have done differently.
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10/23/2013 03:13 PMPosted by lughnasadh
Theodore Roosevelt once said “Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty.”


I made a cute girl smile from a stupid joke. It was both easy and worth having. I don't find things to be enjoyable just because it was a tedious, painful experience to obtain.

Unfortunately, all effort, pain, and difficulty was removed from D3 Softcore by being able to respec without cost, not being able to assign stats, and even having almost no cost to dying.


Effort and difficulty is still there in the form of combat, as it should be. Pain? That should never be part of a game. Ever.


Lol. And with that you were able to demonstrate that Theodore Roosevelt, myself, and all the others who agree on this thread are wrong. Good job.

Now, if you want to understand the quote in the context in which I was giving it, feel free to join in the grownup discussion. Otherwise we will continue on...
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10/23/2013 02:50 PMPosted by Ajarat
But alas, not everyone caught that point about HC being mainly populated by more mature players. You know, just because we talk about how fun HC is compared to SC, nobody is forcing anyone to play HC


Um, it is the very same game, didn't you know? It's not that HC mode gets stronger monsters than SC. The main difference is that when game defeats a HC player he goes back to zero. And even that is being changed as HC dead character will add to Paragon. Not to mention that I've missed any HC player complaining about MP, which renders any achievement in HC a mere meh. At least in D2 everybody had to play in the same field. Under D2 experience, it'd have been close to impossible to reach 99 playing Nm difficulty, while it's a whole different story in D3 playing Inferno MP0-1.

Even the hardest opposition in D2 allowed for tactical solutions. There's not such thing in D3 when monsters can immobilize the character with walls and set 5 sentries on him, to name just one. The only solution is to lower the difficulty to a level where the character can survive all those attacks for its length, which translates into a game where characters can only die due to lag or very bad gaming. Pretty much like staying at home to avoid the risk of being overrun by a truck. That may be fun to some, may not be that much for others.
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Hc is BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD, not sure why people play it just to die on their high paragon characters from a DC or bad choice. They must be crazy to risk to loose a character :)

On the side note, if you know what you're doing chances are you can reduce deaths from DC and some lag spikes, most often by just playing in team. I got a bunch of friends from around the world than have multiple P100 with ping over 200 on regular bases in HC.

HC is more about the mentality than anything else, well and no variety of high end items on AH in the current loot system.
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And to the people crying about D/C and Lag... that's part of it, us HC players have to actually think about battles and our positioning, gear, eHp, etc. to counter lag and D/C. I know it is a hard concept to understand for most kids that play the game, but hey, that's what keeps hc fun.


Nope.

/signed

Fellow HC player


He's right, when dealing with lag and disconnections you have to measure the damage (taken) over time and build on effective health to withstand it. In D2 it meant lower damage and high vitality, in D3 it means higher mitigation and lower MP. In other terms, you build for the highest stress, and consider lag and disconnections as part of such stress.
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I can see the benefits of hardcore, and there are many of them.

However there is one reason I will never seriously invest time in a Hardcore Character. I get lag, I get disconnects. There is a good chance I will lose my character despite my best effort to protect myself unless I play on a low difficulty. Hardcore MP10 is a death sentence, but softcore MP10 can be a welcome challenge.

Hardcore for me is basically a faulty save-state. My character could basically be deleted at any time through no fault of my own. I've lost 2 low-level hardcore characters simply because my ping shot up to 5000 for 4 minutes, and exiting the game did nothing to save them from death.

If I had been playing on MP1 rather than MP10 I might have lived, but what's the fun in playing the game on an easy difficulty?
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10/23/2013 11:27 AMPosted by HermitBoy
Even death held a chance that you would lose all your gear if you could not get back to your body.

Damn, did people actually believe this? Leaving the game and rejoining any game always put your corpse back in town.

Diablo 1 had a chance of losing gear if you died to monsters (not players). All gear hit the ground, no corpses.

Hardcore doesn't interest me much. I first have to want to play the game regularly, and then I actually have to die, and then I have to not be discouraged. None of these have happened yet, although discouragement just comes from playing being generally boring after a bit.

When the expansion hits, I'd be surprised if I took any one of my existing or new characters to paragon 40 or higher. I'm certain it will be fun, but the game will surely get boring relatively easy, despite Blizzard's efforts and I will be back to square 1. I don't really blame Blizzard for this. I've played a lot of games since the 90s, so it's difficult to hold my interest.
Edited by Aspie#1693 on 10/23/2013 3:59 PM PDT
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Nope.

/signed

Fellow HC player


He's right, when dealing with lag and disconnections you have to measure the damage (taken) over time and build on effective health to withstand it. In D2 it meant lower damage and high vitality, in D3 it means higher mitigation and lower MP. In other terms, you build for the highest stress, and consider lag and disconnections as part of such stress.


I don't quite buy that. Sure you can increase life, have higher mitigation etc. But don't most HC players attempt to maximize life and mitigation anyway? And when the game disconnects, how long exactly do you have before you are safe? Is it 1 second, 10 seconds? There is some point at which even the best build is going to die. Maybe I just do not have that information. If there is an exact number of seconds I need to be able to survive, please let me know.

I have played a lot of HC, but I am far from a very good HC player. All of my deaths have been at MP0 or MP1. All my characters have the best EHP, mitigation, and life I can get them. How could I have planned any different for my deaths?
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10/23/2013 03:32 PMPosted by silentkiller
Hc is BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD, not sure why people play it just to die on their high paragon characters from a DC or bad choice. They must be crazy to risk to loose a character :)


It's not bad, is different. I played HC for years, and even in late D2, the community was a bit more interesting as bot scripts weren't that accurate (meaning bots died and economy wasn't that much of a joke).

Point is, while SC is about progression, HC is about flawless performance. If someone isn't interested in that, HC ain't for him. On the other hand, SC with unhindered progression is also a bit of a joke.
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Nope.

/signed

Fellow HC player


He's right, when dealing with lag and disconnections you have to measure the damage (taken) over time and build on effective health to withstand it. In D2 it meant lower damage and high vitality, in D3 it means higher mitigation and lower MP. In other terms, you build for the highest stress, and consider lag and disconnections as part of such stress.


I don't quite buy that. Sure you can increase life, have higher mitigation etc. But don't most HC players attempt to maximize life and mitigation anyway? And when the game disconnects, how long exactly do you have before you are safe? Is it 1 second, 10 seconds? There is some point at which even the best build is going to die. Maybe I just do not have that information. If there is an exact number of seconds I need to be able to survive, please let me know.

I have played a lot of HC, but I am far from a very good HC player. All of my deaths have been at MP0 or MP1. All my characters have the best EHP, mitigation, and life I can get them. How could I have planned any different for my deaths?

10/23/2013 03:58 PMPosted by Aspie
Even death held a chance that you would lose all your gear if you could not get back to your body.

Damn, did people actually believe this? Leaving the game and rejoining any game always put your corpse back in town.



OK, sorry, let me clarify. When you die the first time, your body has all your gear. If you leave the game and log back in, you recover the items on the last body you dropped. If you attempted to go back to your body, and died again, you dropped a second body. If you logged out and back in, you would recover the items on your second body. IE, nothing.

That is what I meant. So yes, there was a risk of losing all your equipment due to death. Especially if you tried to be brave at first, but then realized it was hopeless to go back.
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OK, sorry, let me clarify. When you die the first time, your body has all your gear. If you leave the game and log back in, you recover the items on the last body you dropped. If you attempted to go back to your body, and died again, you dropped a second body. If you logged out and back in, you would recover the items on your second body. IE, nothing.

That is what I meant. So yes, there was a risk of losing all your equipment due to death. Especially if you tried to be brave at first, but then realized it was hopeless to go back.


not quite.

If you died multiple times and you left the game, you got your original body back.

People just didn't want to leave the game because body recovery meant getting your exp back. When you are high in the levels, getting back any exp is better than nothing. If you left the game, you regained 0 exp.
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10/23/2013 04:02 PMPosted by Nicator
It's not bad, is different.


I don't think you got the sarcasm, take a look at my profile to see it. Whoever said HC has more mature player pretty much nailed it. I love to play in group and get their support, help in gearing and so on. I'm lucky enough to almost never lag, DC or crash, actually I've crashed more than DC or lag, the client itself isn't very well coded, so game crashes once a month or so.
Obviously EHP is a big factor in HC, but if you have a stable connection you shouldn't over gear for the lag/dc death.
As you can see none of my chars are geared to survive a DC, and most of my play is MP7-10 even Ubers at MP10. If you get a good group of people, MP10 isn't big deal even in HC.
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He's right, when dealing with lag and disconnections you have to measure the damage (taken) over time and build on effective health to withstand it. In D2 it meant lower damage and high vitality, in D3 it means higher mitigation and lower MP. In other terms, you build for the highest stress, and consider lag and disconnections as part of such stress.


I don't quite buy that. Sure you can increase life, have higher mitigation etc. But don't most HC players attempt to maximize life and mitigation anyway? And when the game disconnects, how long exactly do you have before you are safe? Is it 1 second, 10 seconds? There is some point at which even the best build is going to die. Maybe I just do not have that information. If there is an exact number of seconds I need to be able to survive, please let me know.

I have played a lot of HC, but I am far from a very good HC player. All of my deaths have been at MP0 or MP1. All my characters have the best EHP, mitigation, and life I can get them. How could I have planned any different for my deaths?


I don't have the times for D3. I knew what they were in D2, meaning how many seconds for the server to determine disconnection and remove the character from the game.

And yes, there is some point where even the best character will fail, point is not seeking for it. I've been in games where Butcher is about to ram, and there's a previous animation... yet very few move from its path. When fighting against cold bombs, there's also a timer between them, yet most only move away when the bombs are already in place.

I read people complaining about lag deaths but I'm pretty sure they were already on the limit of their characters when that happened. Most of HC gaming is knowing the character limits and anticipate any potential danger, in a way that when player fails there's still effective health remaining. Playing on the limit is that, on the limit, any extra damage or lag will end the game.
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Afaik it can take over 30 sec from disconnect to being removed from the game. It seems very random at best.

Even if you can gear up to survive for 30+ sec against anything, that would only speak of a really boring game.

In any case, HC can be great fun.
I just don't get why Blizzard isn't adding an auto-pause/save mechanism for high latency/disconnect.
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10/23/2013 04:15 PMPosted by silentkiller
It's not bad, is different.


I don't think you got the sarcasm, take a look at my profile to see it. Whoever said HC has more mature player pretty much nailed it. I love to play in group and get their support, help in gearing and so on. I'm lucky enough to almost never lag, DC or crash, actually I've crashed more than DC or lag, the client itself isn't very well coded, so game crashes once a month or so.
Obviously EHP is a big factor in HC, but if you have a stable connection you shouldn't over gear for the lag/dc death.
As you can see none of my chars are geared to survive a DC, and most of my play is MP7-10 even Ubers at MP10. If you get a good group of people, MP10 isn't big deal even in HC.


During the Dark Ages of D3, and by dark I mean everything until 1.03 when anything one shot people, friends made a bet on who was the first to take a screenshot of me dead. It took 6 weeks to get a winner.

Point is, you don't need to play HC mode to play smart and committed. And I'm in South America, 280 latency is a good day, +400 is avoid maniacs, and +800 is play Act 1. Alas, I only play MP8 with DH for efficient solo experience farming (I increase hatred regeneration dropping fail-safe Battle Scars), otherwise all is MP10. No RMAH, no 3rd parties, no experience shortcuts, my fun to defeat the game using its own rules and keeping it challenging. Pure progression, maybe 10 items, in all 5 classes, coming from GAH. As before, HC is different, not better nor worse.
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Too bad Blizzard will not entertain the option of having an Offline mode.


As much as always online can be a pain, however offline would create big problems with hacks.

If you have internet issues or don't want to lose gear then don't play HC. Blizz is even making it easier by doing account wide paragon.

I would rather lose gear than having everyone with hacked gear
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Once RoS hits you will see a lot more people in HC mode, since AH will be obsolete and valuable HC gear will sell for a higher price then the SC crap that will probably be flooded by people who bum rush Inferno Mobs where their new "loot 2.0" dieing 100 times for some amazing armor that just drops for them ROFL!



Too bad Blizzard will not entertain the option of having an Offline mode.


As much as always online can be a pain, however offline would create big problems with hacks.

If you have internet issues or don't want to lose gear then don't play HC. Blizz is even making it easier by doing account wide paragon.

I would rather lose gear than having everyone with hacked gear


Their was some pretty cool hacked gear in Open Battle.net back in D2, like some stuff was just crazy, their was a charm that made it look like you where on fire, as well as a charm to turn you into pretty much any monster you wanted, their was one my friend had that turned you into Mephisto and it let you raise skeletons, archer skeletons, and some other stuff.

Oh an some ring I got off a guy once that let you summon Fallen Shaman... either way I wouldnt be surprised if it was Hacked weapons in Open B.net that gave Blizzard the Idea of runewords that gave players Paladin Auras
Edited by AkitoHyuga#2185 on 10/23/2013 5:17 PM PDT
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Afaik it can take over 30 sec from disconnect to being removed from the game. It seems very random at best.

Even if you can gear up to survive for 30+ sec against anything, that would only speak of a really boring game.


If it's 30 seconds any disconnection should be end of the game. In D2, when frozen screen, the main solution was to reset the PC as the severs didn't take that long, about 5 seconds when I used to play HC.

Yeah, you're right, no way to spec for 30 seconds mitigation and keep a fun game at the same time.
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