Diablo® III

"It was the wrong choice to play offline in D2"

@ShadowAegis

Your entire premise hinges on a false assumption. You assume that if Blizzard were to add an offline mode to PC, they would do so in a naive way. On consoles they had to trust the users storage, and did not have the ability to store separate online characters on their own servers.

Everyone knew hacked characters and items were going to happen in that environment. Similarly, the worst you can say about offline mode for PC is that people will hack their offline characters. To say offline on PC will cause duping and hacking is technically ignorant to an astonishing degree, and it doesn't get any truer each time you bring it up. I've watched you repeat a completely, flat out wrong argument for why offline mode shouldn't happen time and time again. Even Blizzard has long since stopped the spurious claim that online system integrity and offline play are technically mutually exclusive, but there you go, repeating that nonsense again in your interminable crusade of unaware disinformation.

For whatever reason, you just have it in your head that technical barriers exist when they are easily solvable. I'm not trying to convince you, because you are utterly dug in and have long since proven disinterested in learning otherwise, but when the topic comes up, I'm going to continue to set people straight after your hokey shenanigans.
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11/13/2013 05:10 PMPosted by Dirk
lol, what a load of crap mr. Martens. Why can't you just be honest and say the real reason for not including an offline mode (Piracy and hacking)?


Martens "...offline characters can be hacked and hex-edited to hell and back, right?"


That quote in particular is a gem in that Battle.Net was notorious during D2 for people exploiting their clients to allow them to one-shot anybody and run around being player killers. D2 is where the term Script Kiddies got started.

I know a lot of people who refused to touch battle.net with a 10000 foot pole as a result. And if offline characters can be hacked and hexedited to hell and back.. how is that an issue for Blizzard? If said person has no online access.. who cares what he does with his stuff?
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@ShadowAegis

Your entire premise hinges on a false assumption. You assume that if Blizzard were to add an offline mode to PC, they would do so in a naive way. On consoles they had to trust the users storage, and did not have the ability to store separate online characters on their own servers.

Everyone knew hacked characters and items were going to happen in that environment. Similarly, the worst you can say about offline mode for PC is that people will hack their offline characters. To say offline on PC will cause duping and hacking is technically ignorant to an astonishing degree, and it doesn't get any truer each time you bring it up. I've watched you repeat a completely, flat out wrong argument for why offline mode shouldn't happen time and time again. Even Blizzard has long since stopped the spurious claim that online system integrity and offline play are technically mutually exclusive, but there you go, repeating that nonsense again in your interminable crusade of unaware disinformation.

For whatever reason, you just have it in your head that technical barriers exist when they are easily solvable. I'm not trying to convince you, because you are utterly dug in and have long since proven disinterested in learning otherwise, but when the topic comes up, I'm going to continue to set people straight after your hokey shenanigans.

Well said, DarrelShark, thanks.

I'd just like to add, on the subject of "hackers," that some people who want access to the game's code have "white hat" reasons for it. In other words, they're not so much hackers as modders... The kind of people that helped keep the Diablo flame alive when Blizzard apparently couldn't have been bothered. Jay Wilson and others on his team talked a fair bit about how much they loved the modding community, and how impressed they were with some of the player-created content available, but everything that Blizzard has done speaks of outright contempt for and hostility towards the modding community who helped keep their franchise alive, which I find especially baffling since the current team seemed to be ready to reach out to the modding community as recently as this past July; now, apparently, they think they've done all that they need to by way of fan outreach, so things like offline modes and, by extension, modding, are off the table again.

Considering that D3 is struggling to hang on to its player base, and desperately needs to win back customers who've abandoned this game for greener gaming pastures, I don't understand why the Jay Wilson attitude towards long-time Diablo fans has been allowed to persist at Blizzard. I'm starting to think that it must be a problem with Blizzard's corporate culture, and that it may not be something that they can correct anymore.
Edited by Waitubold#1127 on 11/17/2013 6:51 PM PST
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If it's the wrong choice, I don't wanna be right!
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I wish they put all the b.net exclusive content in SP mode for D2. I'd probably still fire it up every now and then.
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Posts: 16
there are mods for runewords on singleplayer, so I guess thats that
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RPS: What if people don’t want to commit to a community? What if they just want to play the game?

Martens: We didn’t make that game. That’s the straight-up answer. We did not make that game, and we’re not going to turn this game into that game. We have the online mode because we learned a lot over the many, many years that Diablo II was in development.

That was the wrong choice to allow people to play offline, and we still stand by that. And we think Internet access is widespread. If someone has no Internet access, then yeah, Diablo III is not the game for them.


well damn. if playing offline with friends on LAN is wrong and not part of the whole "social" idea (like consoles... get your buddies together and play locally. ya know?), then i just dont want to be right. i mean wtf?

also whats with that statement about no internet? ya there are a lot of ppl with broadband connections. however, there are a whole lotta ppl still using 56k modems (not suitable for D3), satelite (too high of latency usually for gaming), or no internet at all due to the area they are in. giving ppl an offline mode simply increases your product's marketability to other ppl. besides that ppl would love to be able to actually screw around on offline mode sometimes while you are taking your sweet time with 6-11hr maintenances every tuesday and random emergency maintenances that could be any length of time depending on severity.
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11/17/2013 03:49 PMPosted by DarrelShark
Your entire premise hinges on a false assumption. You assume that if Blizzard were to add an offline mode to PC, they would do so in a naive way. On consoles they had to trust the users storage, and did not have the ability to store separate online characters on their own servers.


And you have the naive notion that just because Blizz puts forth, yes truly their best effort to protect against duping and all other kinds of cheating. That players will say okay Blizz will not allow what is done on console. So we hackers will not even try to hack the offline characters. We will not even try to find ways of duping. Because Blizz will implement an offline feature that will have perfect protection against duping.

That naive notion is just as bad as saying in real life during the time when the $20 bill was redesigned. The government thought that They did such a great job that no one would counterfeit it. But I was told at work that one month after the new twenties were released police caught someone with $100,000 worth of counterfeit twenties.

If you think that hackers are not any smarter than they were in the days of D2. Or they would not try new things then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

Just like botters that keep writing new bot programs every time the last bot get's broken. If they were like you are thinking all Blizz would have to do is to break a few bot programs then that would put an end to botting once and for all. Because no one would dare to try.

I say that hackers have gotten a whole lot smarter and would figure out how to dupe on the PC version if an offline mode was given. And as smart as they are it would not take long either. Maybe around a couple of weeks at most.

Those articles on the console shows it took less than one month for the duping to start and actually become bad, so bad that some feel it is almost as bad as the D2. Now tell me did the console players use the same methods that they did in D2 to be able to dupe?

Of course not they had to use different methods and the same would be true for the PC version of D3.

I'd just like to add, on the subject of "hackers," that some people who want access to the game's code have "white hat" reasons for it. In other words, they're not so much hackers as modders... The kind of people that helped keep the Diablo flame alive when Blizzard apparently couldn't have been bothered. Jay Wilson and others on his team talked a fair bit about how much they loved the modding community, and how impressed they were with some of the player-created content available, but everything that Blizzard has done speaks of outright contempt for and hostility towards the modding community who helped keep their franchise alive, which I find especially baffling since the current team seemed to be ready to reach out to the modding community as recently as this past July; now, apparently, they think they've done all that they need to by way of fan outreach, so things like offline modes and, by extension, modding, are off the table again.


Even though there would be some that would use the feature in an honorable way such as just playing the game and making useful mods.

But to think that no one would dare to try to hack the game so they can dupe and cheat to the highest heavens you have blind faith in your fellow players if you think you would not even try to do such a thing.

I still stand by my feelings on offline mode as far as duping, hacking, botting, pirates, and splitting up the community.
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11/17/2013 10:36 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
splitting up the community.


if splitting the community means scrubs like you play in a different realm to myself then i want that back thank you very much!!!!
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@ShadowAegis

My gosh, it's like talking to a brick wall with you. You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and what you do have to say makes it completely clear that you never comprehend anything that has been written in posts you yourself have quoted. I'm not going to berate you further by going into details, but if your post had shown that you read or understood mine, conversation between us wouldn't be so pointless.

I will only be addressing others in this thread from now on, you are a lost cause that is steadfastly dedicated to maintaining his ignorance.
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11/17/2013 10:40 PMPosted by QED
splitting up the community.


if splitting the community means scrubs like you play in a different realm to myself then i want that back thank you very much!!!!


lol the community is already split between HC and SC.
you are in SC. the original Scrubcore.
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Martens: It’s interesting when you’re in the moment in gaming culture – when you’re playing the game right now – we see its flaws very well. When we look at the long history, it becomes sort of a rosy past. I don’t think people necessarily remember how mad they themselves were that they had an offline mode and online mode in Diablo II.

This will probably be controversial for me to say. People will be like, “I wasn’t mad!” But I was there at the time, and then I studied this for a living. It sucks when your friend or brother is online and he wants to join this game, but you realize you’re an offline character and he’s an online character, and there’s no way to transfer over because offline characters can be hacked and hex-edited to hell and back, right?

And then we had that split between expansion characters and normal ones as well [in Diablo II]. The community was inherently divided. And that’s what it boils down to. Long before any of this happened, we wanted to solve the trading problem. But before we even had the auction house, the always online thing was there.

The game is most fun when you can play with other people. To be ghetto-ed off to the side and not part of the real game, we didn’t want that to happen. This is an online game. We want people to play together. All of that predates the auction house. I can see how people would think otherwise, but the auction house was a salve we came up with in the last few months of the project. It was a six-year project.


Offline mode is not a ghetto especially when you consider that it was used for LAN play with one's personal friends they knew in real life. The real ghetto can often be with callous and foolish strangers out on the Internet. I think anyone seriously or even half engaged in D2 had no qualms about rolling a new character online to play with others online, especially when you consider that rolling new characters was what you did all the time in D2 due to tweaking your build.

I find these developer comments disingenuous due to that, smacking of some corporate force behind them wanting an always connected digital age world in which to build brand loyalty and bombard people with constant advertising and marketing the Blizzard brand identity across several market strata and other corporate words.

The game content should be engaging enough to stand on its own without an online mode needed to pep it up. This is (was) a AAA title not a Facebook game.
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11/17/2013 10:36 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
I still stand by my feelings on offline mode as far as duping, hacking, botting, pirates, and splitting up the community.

Well, you're as entitled to your feeling as anyone, I guess. I'm just sorry that you've succumbed so completely to Blizzard's FUD about duping (which doesn't affect you if it someone else does it offline), hacking (ditto), and pirates (a non-issue, since Blizzard isn't going to sell that many more copies of this game, DRM or no), and adopted their dismissive attitude towards the modding community (whom you recognize in passing but the value of whose contributions you have no regard for at all -- just like Blizzard).

I'm also not sure just what "community" it is, for which you're so afraid. There sure isn't a cohesive D3 community now -- just look around the forum and see how little agreement there is on even the most trivial issues, how quickly almost any thread basically degenerates into name-calling. Threads like this one (which is remarkably cohesive, so far, with only a couple of nay-sayers like you), are the exception, not the rule.

Bringing back players who've all left because they hate the DRM wouldn't split up the "community," any more than adding ladders would split up the "community," or adding a self-found mode would have split up the "community." You can't split what doesn't exist in the first place. This is fallacy underlies another of Blizzard's rationalizations for forcing us all to play online; they managed to push us online, but haven't been able to force us to play together, and haven't been able to force a community to form, either, because that isn't something that you can force to happen.

You do make one valid point, though; there's no reason to believe that Blizzard learned, or has any intention of learning, anything positive from the experience of ppl who are still playing D2. For some reason, Blizzard just don't seem to be interested, and their contempt for their own legacy is still baffling.
Edited by Waitubold#1127 on 11/18/2013 4:22 AM PST
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11/17/2013 10:40 PMPosted by QED
splitting up the community.


if splitting the community means scrubs like you play in a different realm to myself then i want that back thank you very much!!!!


If you think that is gonna change my views on what is real and make me put on rose colored glasses joining the cause of getting an offline mode you are crazy.

@ShadowAegis

My gosh, it's like talking to a brick wall with you. You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and what you do have to say makes it completely clear that you never comprehend anything that has been written in posts you yourself have quoted. I'm not going to berate you further by going into details, but if your post had shown that you read or understood mine, conversation between us wouldn't be so pointless.

I will only be addressing others in this thread from now on, you are a lost cause that is steadfastly dedicated to maintaining his ignorance.


You just want me to put on some rose colored glasses and say that everyone that wants this mode are the ones that will be using it legitimately. You are also wanting me to believe that Blizz would implement a system that would be a true Titanic something that would be impossible for anyone to hack for the purposes of making perfect emulation servers. Where it would be impossible for players to hack for the purposes of duping, botting, making cheating mods like D2 style trainer programs, etc...

You want me to believe that those kinds of people would not even bother about trying to do those things if an offline mode was given. Like all players are honest and play legitimately. Heaven forbid even thinking that anyone would cheat in a game. If that is true then why have thousands of players been banned for botting and other such exploitative behavior? That is because they are not as honest as you think.

I will not put on rose colored glasses because I know human nature and how some of those that would use such a mode as I described above think and what they would do. They would actually come into threads like this one or start new ones just to try to sway the masses into giving joining their cause so that they have a large enough numbers to sway Blizz to giving them this mode.

If you think that Blizz has something against modders and you are using that line as a straw man argument then it is just that a simple straw man where you try to convince others into thinking that the only reason that Blizz does not give an offline mode because of a hatred of modders. Like they are afraid that they will make a better game than they have done. Here this tactic is trying to get people to forget about the fact that there are those that would use such a mode to cheat and dupe them into thinking that this is the only reason. So they are up in arms against Blizz and join the we want an offline mode crowd.

These such ones would down play, water it down or try to convince others it just will not happen. But I know otherwise. This world is not a world where honesty is the best policy rules. Where honesty is so important if you are caught lying no one would ever trust you again, do business with you, and maybe not even work with you on a job. No instead it is what can I get away with, honesty is the best policy is basically in the trash can as far as the world goes.

Sure there are those that live honestly and do not tell lies but those are an elite group of people. If we did live in such a world we would not need all of the security when we are online. We would not need locks on our doors, cars, etc... No one would even think of stabbing us in the back. But that is not the way the world works.
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Well, you're as entitled to your feeling as anyone, I guess. I'm just sorry that you've succumbed so completely to Blizzard's FUD about duping (which doesn't affect you if it someone else does it offline), hacking (ditto), and pirates (a non-issue, since Blizzard isn't going to sell that many more copies of this game, DRM or no), and adopted their dismissive attitude towards the modding community (whom you recognize in passing but the value of whose contributions you have no regard for at all -- just like Blizzard).


It is when those duping methods and procedures that are learned offline and changed to fit the online version. It is when those that figure out ways of getting duped offline items injected into the online version that it would affect my game playing experience when I am online. You might be perfectly fine playing with items that have been gotten by means of duping, but I do not want to play with duped items.

Let's take D2, I know that I would never use third party sites to get gear. But I might want to trade with other players to get gear. Now if I traded for a SoJ on USeast and used what is a fair trade for such a ring. Then chances are that I have traded for a duped item. The same would be true if I traded to get a Ber rune, chances are I got a duped item. Then one day when I get up and try to play D2 I would see that my account has been banned for using duped items, when I had no clue that the item was duped.

One of the console articles that I linked clearly shows that it did not take a month for duping to affect the console players. So that just because someone cheats offline does not affect you is a wrong way to look at it. Because in time those cheats will affect others when they figure out how to take them online, or even take the duped items offline and get them online. Or worse figure out new ways of duping on the online version.

I do not live in a world where I wear rose colored glasses and think that the only ones wanting such a mode would be players that want it for legit reasons. I know that modders and people without a strong internet connection are not the only ones wanting such a mode. There will be those dishonest ones that would attach themselves to the crowd just so they can get it for their purposes.

While I know that modders have done a lot for D2, but unfortunately they have to suffer because of the dishonest ones. If we truly did live in a society where everyone was honest and no one would break the rules then yes an offline mode would be possible.

11/18/2013 04:20 AMPosted by Waitubold
I'm also not sure just what "community" it is, for which you're so afraid. There sure isn't a cohesive D3 community now -- just look around the forum and see how little agreement there is on even the most trivial issues, how quickly almost any thread basically degenerates into name-calling. Threads like this one (which is remarkably cohesive, so far, with only a couple of nay-sayers like you), are the exception, not the rule.


I am looking at the same community of players that are no doubt some of the same ones that attended Blizzcon. The players that want to play the game honestly. They do not want to cheat, use duped items, or bot. They want to either find a good item or trade with others that legitimately found a good item. Just like one of the ones in one of those linked articles in an earlier reply. He said I thought that this game was not gonna be like D2 where we would have problems with duping like D2. Those are the ones that I am fighting for. Sure it means that D3 will never get an offline mode, until the day that Blizz decides to shut down the servers.

If you think that these forums are the type of place where one person posts and everyone agrees with them sorry but that will not be happening at all. The reasons for no offline mode are clearly given. Sure it would suck for some, but I have no doubt that there are millions of players around the world that would love to play online games but they have such crappy internet connections that it is impossible to do that.

The community will grow due to RoS and more copies of this game along with RoS will be sold. You seem to forget that we have already had 14 million copies of D3 sold. Those along with others that will no doubt join the game because of the fact that RoS will launch this game into award winning status like it should be.

You do make one valid point, though; there's no reason to believe that Blizzard learned, or has any intention of learning, anything positive from the experience of ppl who are still playing D2. For some reason, Blizzard just don't seem to be interested, and their contempt for their own legacy is still baffling.


You are twisting the point I made and that is no matter how good Blizz is they are not perfect. They will never be able to make a perfect game. They will never be able to make a perfect offline mode where it would be impossible to hack into the game and get the information that you want. They would never be able to make such a system that is so good where it would be impossible to get duped items from the offline version into the online version. Or prevent online duping due to possible new exploits or new methods.

That is simply because cheaters that want to cheat will find ways of doing it. Telling them that you have something like the Titanic where it is impossible to do. Is just waving a red flag into a bulls face. Those individuals will look for ways to cheat.
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Being able to hack your toon offline in D2 was also part of what made it so great.
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What an arrogant dude, I respect the guy for his gaming past with Baldur's gate II, Dragon age but to comment on D2, a game that has more longevity than both of those games combined is a slap in the face to the orginal D2 team.
Edited by Badfish#1247 on 11/18/2013 9:35 AM PST
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ShadowAegis,

As I've told you before, you saying that a hacker can force a server side change ignores entirely how a server-side architecture works. The server tells you what item you got. Your game client can never tell the server what you got. Even if you in-memory changed a weapon to "be" another on your screen, even if your stats change on screen, the server still says you have the old item and all your game play will execute as if you had that other weapon before you started mucking around.

Introducing an offline mode would not change this paradigm. Even if you somehow forced an offline enabled client to tell an online client that you have x, y, and z items, the blizzard server still would not and your actual game play performance would not change one bit. You won't kill monsters faster, your stats won't actually change, and so on. In fact, if you pointed an online client to the offline client, like you'd do if you were spoofing the blizzard server, you would have zero impact whatsoever on your online profile. You would progress exactly zero in all respects.
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