Diablo® III

BoA (+ delay to trade in clan) to save the game

11/18/2013 01:24 AMPosted by bearr
Oh you are so generous. That's why you can't take all this evilness from Blizzard forbidding you to help the ones in need.

You have no clue what you are even talking about, because you are talking about me, and my life, of which you know nothing.

They will surive without their high-end legendaries. They'll find them themselves. That's your only argument, really?

No, it is not. It is, however, the only one I choose to offer. I mean, why bother, right? No matter what I say, it will be answered with an uninformed answer, based on suppositions that that have no basis in fact.

The attitudes I see here, in threads like this, suggest to me that there are very few on these forums who could comprehend my motivations - because they have never lived my life. Seriously, it would be as if I were speaking in code.
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Anti BoA chiming in here.

1. I will never get to trade my replaced gear on my WD/Wizard to my fiance ever again. (She plays a WD and Wiz too) however I work Graveyard and she doesn't. We do not always have time to play toghether and she plays much less than me.

2. I will never be able to trade items to strangers that are new to the game ever again. a good example of this is when I achieved Paragon 80 I handed out legendaries. another example is when I got Paragon 77 on my barbarian I treated a handful of legendaries and 500 k gold

3. I will never be able to hook up returning friends that come back to Diablo. they we'll not be able to play with me because they're gears is not at the level that I play at.

4. I will not be able to ever host a item drop game and help out random players that are new to the game, this is where I drop high end legendaries. I typically do this via a trivia game

This is not a threat it is a promise that I will not purchase Reaper of souls if the decision to keep bind on account items remains ~ I have no interest in playing a game that is similar World of Warcraft.

I have never traded outside of the gold auction house or the real money auction house. I have only traded via the forums or in game or via the gold auction house.

the entire problem with the pro bind on account players is there thought process you want to poison the entire well just for your play style while leaving no options for anyone else but yourself

most of the pro bind on account players make me sick, there are a few of you that do you have sound and logical arguments however typically most of you do not care for any other option but your own

I am tired of defending my play style with the notion that I am a cheater, exploiter, gold farmer or botter. Simply because I want the option of trading.


... you have read the part where you can still trade un-enchanted Rares right? So you can't trade Uber-bow-Demon-Killer-3000, isn't it more fun to kill a monster and have it drop for yourself?
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BOA won't change the fact, that cheaters will still be in the game, period.

And earn it? This is not a job you know. What happened to playing for fun? Fun for others may very differ from your fun. So let's have fun for a small minority, instead of most could have fun.


Euh... I don't what kind of cheaters you talk about, but they will be much less than without BoA. It's not about having no cheaters at all or only that. It's about having less of them I guess.

lol basic gaming notion man: Earning something in a game is actually fun. You know that thing that D2 was loved for... oh wait, what was it? Oh yeah, grinding. Oh burn.
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11/17/2013 08:20 PMPosted by Whiplash
We are not going to buy or support the game. Period. They can spin it how they want, work themselves into a frenzy about it. It's irrelevant. You still have lost a huge portion of the game playerbase. And they'll see that when the expansion bombs.

At this point in time, I don't think Blizzard cares about catering to this particular demographic of the franchises player base.

While I hate to put it this way, a lot of us who played the first two games to death, represent a lot of legacy baggage when it comes to this franchise as far as expectations go. The previous games didn't have much rules and allowed players to create their own meta-games whether it be trading, going hostile and pk'ing, creating their own rules for PvP, etc. They also do realize that a portion of the player base do place a value on their items. It's one (and just one out of many) of the reasons they had an RMAH to begin with (providing a sanctioned trading vehicle).

The problem is that it created a whole different set of problems, exasperated by the underyling core design which led to the itemization system that had to be subjected to wider ranges, and lots of RNG with those rolls and ranges. This naturally affected the quality of drops, which made the general game, unfun/unrewarding to play after awhile, where many short circuited the reward loop by gearing via the AH's instead. That also led to the whole AH meta-game that some played (playing it, more than the game itself).

Since the pre-expansion changes with loot are still being based on the original core design, the fundamental issue became, how do you increase that quality level, without repeating this cycle all over again. One of their decisions was removing the AH's. The 2nd and most volatile one was making the best items in the game (legendary and set items), soul bound; thus preventing freely available trading for only those items.

While it would have made far more sense to address the underlying root cause, that isn't feasible because the entire game is designed around those systems (would require a total overhaul and re-balancing of skills and would break everyones gear in the process - basically translates into an entirely new game).

Yes, being able to freely trade everything has been one of the key parts of the franchise. It isn't mandatory but it was something that was there for those who enjoyed that part of the game. D2:LoD became the go-to benchmark for many comparisons. The problem is that the creators and teams that worked on the first two games, are no longer in that equation. The team that did work on D3 have their own design philosophies and vision for the franchise. While they've stuck to some key things, they've been willing to part with the past in others.

Even their own design iterations during D3's development, went from BoE on the highest end items (announced during BlizzCon 2009) to no binding in early 2011 (see http://www.diablowiki.net/Binding). And in 2013, this design philosophy is coming full circle where it is again being implemented, for the highest end items (allowing them to increase their quality level). The option for trading will still exist for rares and lower level items (this is the compromise so it isn't like trading is going away completely for those who enjoy that part of the game) but yes, I do realize that parts of the player base want unrestricted trading with no soul bound legendary/sets period. Like the removal of the AH's, I highly doubt they will be changing their mind on this. Most of the arguments against this idea aren't sufficient enough and I believe they aren't going to cater to this particular demographic even if it means losing them.

The current team are telegraphing their objectives; the current mantra being "wanting us to find our epic loot by killing monsters". Thus the decision to make legendary and set items soul bound with a very restricted trading window. They of course knew that this would not please everyone. The reality is that trying to please everyone can lead to a less rewarding experience (this applies to many other areas as well which is why some companies focus on specific markets, genres, demographics; eg. luxury car makers, luxury apparel, etc).

So the current team are doing what they feel will be best for the game/franchise going forward. They want players to feel rewarded for actually playing the game and getting their items by killing monsters. And when something high end does drop, it will be build changing good. But it's not like they don't realize that this won't appeal to everyone who has been a fan of the Diablo franchise since the first one was released in 1996. If that means players like yourself aren't going to buy the expansions nor play the game, then it is clearly something they are willing to accept (see why below).

How many players they end up losing, no one really will know until the expansion actually goes on sale. To be honest, I think Diablo III lost a lot of the really hardcore Diablo II:LoD players early on. What remains today are a vocal minority who aren't sizable enough to make a huge impact when compared to the much larger silent majority who never visits these forums, let alone even play the game co-operatively. Opinion: I believe the loss of desktop players due to the inability to trade legendary/set items will be relatively small (but continually arguing that point without any hard numbers either way is futile).

Kevin Martens made the following two statements in a recent interview:

We didn’t make that game. That’s the straight-up answer. We did not make that game, and we’re not going to turn this game into that game.

+
If someone has no Internet access, then yeah, Diablo III is not the game for them.

Source: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/11/13/blizzard-talks-diablo-iiis-new-path-defends-online-req/

This of course was in regards to the online only requirement of the game. The point however is that they aren't interested in making Lord of Destruction II or sticking to past formulas. The 2nd quote telegraphs they are willing to make certain decisions even if it means losing potential players (and as I mentioned at the beginning, this franchise has major legacy baggage to deal with). So replace "has no Internet access" with "doesn't like soul binding on legendary/set items that prevents just these items from being freely traded". Statements like this allude to a willingness to leave behind some of that past baggage.
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BOA won't change the fact, that cheaters will still be in the game, period.

And earn it? This is not a job you know. What happened to playing for fun? Fun for others may very differ from your fun. So let's have fun for a small minority, instead of most could have fun.


Euh... I don't what kind of cheaters you talk about, but they will be much less than without BoA. It's not about having no cheaters at all or only that. It's about having less of them I guess.

lol basic gaming notion man: Earning something in a game is actually fun. You know that thing that D2 was loved for... oh wait, what was it? Oh yeah, grinding. Oh burn.


Don't patronize me. makes you look stupid and really don't serve to sway me over to your cause. Which in turn, makes me question, why you are even here? I can also safely say, that you have no idea what I did in D2 or did not do, so how can you even use that as an argument? I have played video games, since they got invented, and by the sound of your post, I would easily guess, I am twice or more your age. So grow up.

People will still Bot for example. They did it in D2, they will do it here. Because, some just wants to feel more powerful than others. It is why elite sports performers do illegal enhancements, despite they are risking a lot more than a ban from a computer-game. Human nature. But go read some of the other threads, not just skim them. Lots of good points from both sides.
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LordMurasama, I tip my hat to you good sir. A very well-worded summation of the state of affairs.
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11/18/2013 01:47 AMPosted by KingD
Don't patronize me. makes you look stupid and really don't serve to sway me over to your cause. Which in turn, makes me question, why you are even here? I can also safely say, that you have no idea what I did in D2 or did not do, so how can you even use that as an argument? I have played video games, since they got invented, and by the sound of your post, I would easily guess, I am twice or more your age. So grow up.


Where's your sense of humor? I was just teasing. Point is, I never said I knew what you were doing in D2, but Diablo is a grinding game and is not anymore. There's a difference between playing a game for fun or to gain something like a job. Grinding is, IMO, more fun than pay to win.

I could also return the blame to you, as you don't know how old I am.
Edited by bearr#2157 on 11/18/2013 1:51 AM PST
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11/18/2013 01:40 AMPosted by LordMurasama
They of course knew that this would not please everyone. The reality is that trying to please everyone can lead to a less rewarding experience (this applies to many other areas as well which is why some companies focus on specific markets, genres, demographics; eg. luxury car makers, luxury apparel, etc).

I wonder if anyone would be complaining if Blizzard never brought up BOA, basically just left it out.

It worked before. How many people complained about there being no BOA and bought Diablo 3, none? I don't remember anyone asking for BOA ever.
Edited by Orecchiette#1114 on 11/18/2013 1:55 AM PST
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11/18/2013 01:19 AMPosted by holce
no categories for affixes


11/18/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Baconan
I really don't see how that necessitates BOA in any way.


I was just speaking about the differences between the console version and RoS. This difference will impact the game play and has to be taken into account when we try to understand how the game will be. If an item has only 4 primary affixes we will have 4 affixes for IAS, CC, CD ,AR, Vit, main stat. If a legendary have only 3 primary and common affixes because its legendary affix takes the place of a primary affix, The legendary will be better than a rare only if we make use for the legendary affix. If this affix depends on builds then, we will not be able to use the same legendaries or even have a legendary in each item slot. Some rare items will be BiS and all end game trading will not be impossible.

11/18/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Baconan
Mystic was going to be BOA all along, we already knew this.


Mystic make items BoA, so that mean mystic is not able to improve items?

I was speaking about a way to find better item to use not better item to sell. This is why Mystic is a good alternative to trading. (but not work for legendary affixes)

11/18/2013 01:30 AMPosted by Baconan
So it will be better to have a tiny amount of people running around with build changing affixes then?


When do I say something like that? It depends on the drop rate. If each monsters will give 10 000 legendaries item per kill, I don't think will have difficulties to find the legendary we want. (Or perhaps in the screen). Without trading the drop rate will be adjusted. And the adjustment will be better because it will be easier to control the rarity of legendary items.
Edited by holce#2777 on 11/18/2013 2:04 AM PST
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Ok so when elite sports performers do illegal enhancements do the competition holders just let them do and say ow there only human we will never stop them and then let them do it or do they implement steps to try and stop them or limit them from doing it to keep the competition clean fun and a level playing field for everyone........
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11/17/2013 08:20 PMPosted by Whiplash
We are not going to buy or support the game. Period.


If I had a $ for every players that SAID this then went and BOUGHT THE GAME lololol...
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11/18/2013 02:00 AMPosted by holce
When do I say something like that? It depends on the drop rate. If each monsters will give 10 000 legendaries item per kill, I don't think will have difficulties to find the legendary we want. (Or perhaps in the screen). Without trading the drop rate will be adjusted. And the adjustment will be better because it will be easier to control the rarity of legendary items.

So you'd rather it be super easy to get BIS legendary items? You'll be done in a week. Trading doesn't make getting items all that much easier but adjusting drop rates definitely does.
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Thus the decision to make legendary and set items soul bound with a very restricted trading window. They of course knew that this would not please everyone.


+1 They felt they HAD to address the loot issues and many scams and exploits at the ah by wannabee tycoons. Not to mention botters or 3rd party sites etc.,..
11/18/2013 02:03 AMPosted by Baconan
So you'd rather it be super easy to get BIS legendary items? You'll be done in a week.


I've played Wow for 7 years and we have always had soulbound or account-bound loot - Think your argument's invalid as I'm not sure I'll be playing D3 for 7 years...

Think you'll have a different opinion after launch friend.
Edited by Wired#2524 on 11/18/2013 2:06 AM PST
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11/18/2013 01:50 AMPosted by bearr
Don't patronize me. makes you look stupid and really don't serve to sway me over to your cause. Which in turn, makes me question, why you are even here? I can also safely say, that you have no idea what I did in D2 or did not do, so how can you even use that as an argument? I have played video games, since they got invented, and by the sound of your post, I would easily guess, I am twice or more your age. So grow up.


Where's your sense of humor? I was just teasing. Point is, I never said I knew what you were doing in D2, but Diablo is a grinding game and is not anymore. There's a difference between playing a game for fun or to gain something like a job. Grinding is, IMO, more fun than pay to win.

I could also return the blame to you, as you don't know how old I am.


Yes you could, but I doubt you are born before '72. You'll have to prove me wrong on that one :)

However, this thing is not so black and white as people wants it to be.

Only reason this board is even having these discussions, is because of Blizz fecking up in the first place.

They designed their game, so the AH's would be the road with least resistance regarding gearing up. Coupled with some game bug's early on, that let certain classes get an unhealthy wealth advantage.

They did away, with placing power in skills, and choose to place power in items. Players wants to feel powerful. So, the natural way, was the AH way, because one sure as H couldn't find it ingame.

I posted this in another thread, just to show it is do-able without resorting to a demise of trade as we know it;

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10497099988?page=10#195
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I've played Wow for 7 years and we have always had soulbound or account-bound loot - Think your argument's invalid as I'm not sure I'll be playing D3 for 7 years...

Think you'll have a different opinion after launch friend.

WoW's not a dungeon crawler. You may as well be comparing baseball rules to football.
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11/18/2013 02:03 AMPosted by Baconan
So you'd rather it be super easy to get BIS legendary items? You'll be done in a week


No my example was just to show it could be possible to make it too easy to get legendaries without trading. So this is possible to find a balance between "drop rate is so bad that trading is required" and "drop rate is insane".

11/18/2013 02:03 AMPosted by Baconan
Trading doesn't make getting items all that much easier but adjusting drop rates definitely does.


If you play with friends and exchange freely the items you can't use, you will have access to nearly 4 times the drop rate. But that does not make easier to get items. Of course it helps. Perhaps not as much as the drop rate but enough to have to be taken into account. If trading was useless, nobody would care about making legendaries BoA.
Edited by holce#2777 on 11/18/2013 2:15 AM PST
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11/18/2013 02:13 AMPosted by holce
If trading was useless, nobody would care about making legendaries BoA.

Nobody did care. This was completely perpetuated by Blizzard.

I never heard anyone clamoring for BOA until after Blizzard decided to. Anyone suggesting BOA was a minority and a not vocal one at that.

It's amazing how BOA is all the sudden a great idea once Blizzard forces it upon us. Believe me, we all already thought of this, decided it was a terrible idea and told nobody about it.
Edited by Orecchiette#1114 on 11/18/2013 2:18 AM PST
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Yes you could, but I doubt you are born before '72. You'll have to prove me wrong on that one :)

However, this thing is not so black and white as people wants it to be.

Only reason this board is even having these discussions, is because of Blizz fecking up in the first place.

They designed their game, so the AH's would be the road with least resistance regarding gearing up. Coupled with some game bug's early on, that let certain classes get an unhealthy wealth advantage.

They did away, with placing power in skills, and choose to place power in items. Players wants to feel powerful. So, the natural way, was the AH way, because one sure as H couldn't find it ingame.

I posted this in another thread, just to show it is do-able without resorting to a demise of trade as we know it;



Yeah lol, I'm definitely born after 72 haha

I read your post on the other thread and I don't think that removing the RMAH without adding BoA will fix the problem. People with credit cards will still find their way.

The RMAH will always exist if there's not some form of Bound on something.
Edited by bearr#2157 on 11/18/2013 2:33 AM PST
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11/18/2013 02:13 AMPosted by holce
If trading was useless, nobody would care about making legendaries BoA.


Nobody did care. This was completely perpetuated by Blizzard.

I never heard anyone clamoring for BOA until after Blizzard decided to. Anyone suggesting BOA was a minority and a not vocal one at that.


I will rephrase it.

If trading was useless, nobody would care if we have BoA or not.
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11/18/2013 02:35 AMPosted by holce
If trading was useless, nobody would care if we have BoA or not.

Trading is just another useful option, nothing more. If trading is the reason for BOA, they've royally screwed up.
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