Diablo® III

RoS: Please Reconsider the Level Scaling Mechanic

So in theory, with level scaling, could you just conceivably sit in the same small extremely packed area of a zone, clear it, reset, and do that all the way to max level?

edit (as long as you had gear in stash to adjust to monster levels)

If that's possible, that seems to sort of trivialize hardcore leveling.

How is that any different to how it is now? Instead of moving from place to place skipping through dialogue you're replaying the same place without dialogue.


Its different to how it is now, because in the now, you'll eventually out-level the mobs to the point the exp isn't worth it and you're forced to move on. You're forced to take some risk.
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I agree. What's the point of levels at all if enemies always scale to your level?
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I don't like level scaling because it feels like it negates my progress. I can't then go back and bash up the idiots I was previously struggling against.

Having to turn down the monster power just reminds me of why I hate the Elder Scrolls games: Bethesda is horrible at game balance and I have to make my own game by fiddling with the difficulty slider because they didn't care to check. My "spell caster" in Oblivion was so weak I have to put the damn slider all the way to the left and it feels like I have this stupidly weak mage that runs out of mana before anything is dead. I quit playing, and I never leave a game unfinished.

People say leveling isn't part of the game, and yet we have Paragon levels because people wanted to keep leveling. Gaining a level in Diablo 2 meant something. It was a small but noticeable jump in power. The linear leveling path in Diablo 3 feels even less rewarding and monsters scaling with your level is just going to make it feel even more bland than it already is until you're level 60.

It also takes away the sense of progression, which is what "RPG" (especially an item-focused one like Diablo) is all about. I don't like having to turn down the slider to go beat monsters up because it feels like I failed. If my gear and skill as a player would allow me to beat the curve set by the developers, it has to let me or I also feel like I failed. I can't tell you why set difficulty modes do this for me and a slider doesn't but that's just how I'm sure most of us feel but can't put into words. Structure, maybe? The developers said "this is how it's gonna be and if you got this, you have my permission to continue" instead of just making up your own rules because the game lacks a firm hand.

Diablo 1 and 2 let you almost break the game. That was fun. That's something you pretty much can't do right now in Diablo 3 because there are so many rules in place. I don't want more rules. I want less. For example, let me give Ancient Spear to my Wizard so I can then Wave of Force them away. It'd be like playing baseball, and be funny.

There are also all sorts of problems with this. What do you do with the guy who just wants to stay in Act 1 forever? Is that good for the game? Or the guy who wants to get to the torture dungeons in Act 1 and just stay there until he stops playing? Or go straight to Malthael as a level 1 because it has the best stuff? How does it work in multiplayer? What if you want to mix a level 1 and a level 70? Can you no longer power-level people? Is taking that away good for the game? What if you want to force the game to a higher or lower difficulty in this scenario? Is the slider enough?
agree
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How is that any different to how it is now? Instead of moving from place to place skipping through dialogue you're replaying the same place without dialogue.


Its different to how it is now, because in the now, you'll eventually out-level the mobs to the point the exp isn't worth it and you're forced to move on. You're forced to take some risk.


and you'll eventually outgear the mobs in expansion.
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Monsters scaling with level makes 100% sense to me, and I'd much prefer that than the current tiered system that forces us to play through the game 3 times to reach endgame.

You can still feel the power of your progression if you want, but now you take the difficulty (new MP types) down a notch as opposed to revisiting an earlier area. So as an example:

Currently: Return to a lower level area/ mode and feel much more powerful.

RoS: Return to a lower level difficulty and feel much more powerful.

The benefits of having everything within a self-contained mode far outweigh the loss of something like farming low-level gear for your alt, which in itself is something that shouldn't even be necessary with Loot 2.0 and Paragon 2.0.

Like every other design choice, there's always going to be trade-offs. In this case, the trade-off is the ability to battle lower level monsters (pointless) and/or farm for lower level gear (shouldn't ever be necessary anyway and will be diminished with Paragon point twinking).
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11/16/2013 02:56 PMPosted by DrothVader
How would you suggest balancing a mode where all areas can be played from level 1-70 without level scaling?


not do it?

Blizzard doesn't have to do this. This is another example of Blizzard making an over the top knee jerk reaction to something and making the situation either worse or harder on them. People weren't complaining about going through 3 modes, we were complaining about going through 4 where the first 3 were meaningless.

The solution there is to remove inferno or at the very least do what they are doing with the gear in that gear scales with level and drops from all modes.

This is entirely unnecessary
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Its different to how it is now, because in the now, you'll eventually out-level the mobs to the point the exp isn't worth it and you're forced to move on. You're forced to take some risk.


and you'll eventually outgear the mobs in expansion.


Outgearing mobs doesn't affect exp from them.. I'm talking about playing hc and just sitting in a little corner of superdense white mobs somewhere and being able to do that exclusively 1-70 if you had the gear waiting in your stash to adjust to monster power. That's kinda lame.
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11/16/2013 11:42 PMPosted by Darlynn
Indeed, I hope that nonsense will be optional!


It essentially is b/c there are 9 difficulty settings to choose from which impact how much the monsters scale and how much health/dmg they have.

E.g., if you leave it on normal you'll outlevel the monsters quickly and face roll everything.

but if you want a real challenge you crank up the difficulty until monsters outlevel and do more then you.

so you the user gets to control how much they scale.

But some form of basic scaling is required else you'll never find gear that's higher then iLevel 10 and I doubt anyone wants that. (remember drops are based on MONSTER level)
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Level scaling means I can't farm for lowbie gear to help twink my lowbie toons.

They can level scale Adventure Mode, but lets not have it in Story Mode, that lets most everyone have what they want.

I also like running around with my boots and watching trivial mobs die in my path of fire.


You can still do that. Just put it on easy mode. Done.
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11/17/2013 11:07 AMPosted by Mortikend
That's what the DIFFICULTY settings are for - to make the game easier if you want.


Don't confuse difficulty with sense of progression. I enjoy a challenging game, I'm not concerned about it being too hard for me to enjoy. I'm concerned about gaining a level and thinking, "cool, I got nowhere" 69 times.

In WoW, it's extremely satisfying to go back and clear Tempest Keep with a level 90 character. After months of wiping in there back when level 70 was the cap, I like to go back and slap things around. It's a reminder that all my grinding has actually gotten me somewhere. That's the sense of progression I crave in RPGs, and that's the same sense of progression that level scaling takes away.


I know but what I'm saying is you can still do that. You can still put it on easy or normal mode and go kick the crap out of Act 1 or wherever you want.
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Level scaling means I can't farm for lowbie gear to help twink my lowbie toons.

They can level scale Adventure Mode, but lets not have it in Story Mode, that lets most everyone have what they want.

I also like running around with my boots and watching trivial mobs die in my path of fire.


You can still do that. Just put it on easy mode. Done.


Wont work because the mobs level up with him. Thats his point. Level 70 fallen on mp1 are still not going to be as weak as lvl 1 fallen that die to your auras/thorns/boots.
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1/ This is the most tedious part of levelling a new character especially in HC, I dislike having to go through the same "game" four times let alone five to get to level 70.

2/ There are to many Monster power levels, the five new levels should be sufficient

3/ I agree with the OP on this point.

4/ Level of monsters will increase with your level, so it might be possible to complete 1-70 on act 1 only once adventure mode is unlocked.

Level scaling will hopefully be maxed per individual difficulty setting once at level 70 or it will be just horrrible to play.
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Monsters scaling with level makes 100% sense to me, and I'd much prefer that than the current tiered system that forces us to play through the game 3 times to reach endgame.

You can still feel the power of your progression if you want, but now you take the difficulty (new MP types) down a notch as opposed to revisiting an earlier area. So as an example:

Currently: Return to a lower level area/ mode and feel much more powerful.

RoS: Return to a lower level difficulty and feel much more powerful.

The benefits of having everything within a self-contained mode far outweigh the loss of something like farming low-level gear for your alt, which in itself is something that shouldn't even be necessary with Loot 2.0 and Paragon 2.0.

Like every other design choice, there's always going to be trade-offs. In this case, the trade-off is the ability to battle lower level monsters (pointless) and/or farm for lower level gear (shouldn't ever be necessary anyway and will be diminished with Paragon point twinking).


Another fair point, but it's not quite the same. The mechanic in RoS can be easily compared to an action game (no leveling up at all) with difficulty settings.

There's a big difference between saying, "I can trash the same enemies I fought before, that used to give me lots of trouble", and saying, "I can turn down the difficulty setting". With the new system, there's no fixed point of reference to remind you how far you've come. Pointless? To some, sure. But obviously those of us who like the sense of true progression are disturbed by it.

Mort
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I like the idea because that way I all monsters will always be a threat. There is no reason to go back to the lower areas of the game. Without level scaling you will not get as much xp as you would with it. Then all monsters would only drop low level stuff which we do not need to keep a lot of due to smart drops that are in the game. So now you can farm with the character instead of always needing to farm for an alt. Even though you can no doubt get some things for an alt. But that alt needs to be the same level as the one that got it.

Without scaling you have a forgone conclusion to only do the highest difficulties in the game. What about the campaign mode as well where does it fit in with what you are wanting?

If you think that we will be wanting to still play through the story mode four times forget it.

This is a good idea and it is something that they have no doubt borrowed from other games.
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MVP
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So I just wanted to jump in here and make a comment.

I'm leveling a Crusader in Adventure Mode right now (Currently level 19 I think after a few hours) and you don't have to worry about the game getting too hard for you like it does in Oblivion.

The scaling in this game more or less keeps an equal feeling difficulty with each level earned. You're not going to feel weaker in comparison to monsters as you level. Your power is really more reflective of your gear which seems to drop quite well for the character you're playing.

I understand your concern as I have played Oblivion and I absolutely LOATHE that mechanic since Bethesda did it completely wrong in that game, but you must keep in mind that this isn't Oblivion so it may not even be remotely similar.

The monsters leveling with you mechanic feels well done and quite balanced in RoS.
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