Diablo® III

*5* Things The Anti BOA Crowd Don't Seem To Realize:

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EDIT: Apologies for the minor necro, but I see a lot of people once again losing sight of these 5 things and I'd rather not remake the thread.

Firstly, a disclaimer. I am pro-BoA, but not 100%. I wouldn't mind seeing BoE or BoT or some other sort of hybrid approach introduced.

That said, there are 5 common misconceptions and oversights I see from the people protesting about it on the forums making.

I'm going to leave discussions over how BoA will kill Blackmarket sites alone for now, since this has been covered ad-nauseum before.

So...

1) Not everything will be BoA.

Unmodified rares and the like will still be freely trade-able from what we know.

2) Rares will still be good.

While legendaries and sets will generally be better, from what we've seen from datamining there will likely be some awesome rares too, and more than likely a near perfect rare could end up being near BiS. Again, we know nothing for sure yet, but this seems to be a reasonable assumption at this point.

Especially post droprate nerf in the Beta, you are probably going to be quite happy to get an awesome rare.

3) You can still trade with your friends in the same game.

If an item drops in a game with a friend, you can trade it and help them out if they need it. Many of us are suggesting something similar being done with clans.

4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

At least nowhere near the extent that item selling is now. Sure, you will always have an extreme minority who will spend ages bypassing the system to do this, but there are a *lot* of safeguards to prevent account trading, and doing it runs a massive risk of getting ripped off.

Botting is another issue entirely. But one of the major reasons that botters are so common is due to how easy it is to sell gold and gear. If that stuff was all BoA, not only would there be less incentive to do it, there would also be a *lot* more risk.

5) Trading does affect others.

Far too many people seem to think that if unrestricted trading is allowed with loot drops balanced around self found, that people can just choose to opt out of it.

Thing is, as I've said in another thread...probably the most common 'goal' in D3 is to have a Powerful Character. And in games like this, power is relative. Trading will give a massive advantage, and thus for anyone wanting to play the game 'right'...there would be a serious incentive to trade.

And that's without PvP. Once PvP enters the arena (hah) then an entirely new can of worms is opened.

So yeah...I'm fine with BoA. I'm also fine with BoE or BoT. But overall I do feel that the quasi-BoA we seem to be getting now is going to be best for the game.
Edited by Starbird#1360 on 12/4/2013 5:21 PM PST
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I have seen all these arguments and their are counter points made on all them in the various. Forum pages. Its not that we dont understand the points you make, We think these things are wrong for a diablo game. Us anti-BOA people are never going to get on board with this system. Blizzard has really caused a big split on this game. Its gonna be like a divorce. BOAers will keep the house (Diablo iii) and the anti BOAers will proabaly go shack up with something in town (new game) LOL.
Edited by Badfish#1247 on 11/16/2013 9:04 AM PST
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A good, informative thread.

Point #5 - I would like to point out that trading is not required at all (but only) if a person's goal is not just to play MP10. If a person is playing to have fun and can invest the time and have the willpower to be patient, he could easily play the low level MPs without buying or trading a single item.
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I really hate arguing with you Starbird cause you're honestly one of my favorite posters in this forum :|


1) Not everything will be BoA.

Unmodified rares and the like will still be freely trade-able from what we know.

2) Rares will still be good.

While legendaries and sets will generally be better, from what we've seen from datamining there will likely be some awesome rares too, and more than likely a near perfect rare could end up being near BiS. Again, we know nothing for sure yet, but this seems to be a reasonable assumption at this point.


Rares are far more random than the legendaries. Legendaries are also expected to be game changers, and concurrently legendaries and sets vastly fill most peoples gear slots.

Rares off the bat have a hard time of being good. People were likely to wear them though because they were tradeable en bulk. Very few people habitually find rares that are actually good for others, much less for themselves.

I don't know how this new system is going to work in comparison to legendaries. But if it more or less stays the same, we shouldn't expect rares to realistically be super good


3) You can still trade with your friends in the same game.

If an item drops in a game with a friend, you can trade it and help them out if they need it.


I'm happy with this, BUT I would go a step further and at least say that you can trade with your friends regardless of in game or not.


4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

At least nowhere near the extent that item selling is now. Sure, you will always have an extreme minority who will spend ages bypassing the system to do this, but there are a *lot* of safeguards to prevent account trading, and doing it runs a massive risk of getting ripped off.

Botting is another issue entirely. But one of the major reasons that botters are so common is due to how easy it is to sell gold and gear. If that stuff was all BoA, not only would there be less incentive to do it, there would also be a *lot* more risk.


This is very true, account selling is going to be very tiny.

the botting is going to be very tricky though.

5) Trading does affect others.

Far too many people seem to think that if unrestricted trading is allowed with loot drops balanced around self found, that people can just choose to opt out of it.

Thing is, as I've said in another thread...probably the most common 'goal' in D3 is to have a Powerful Character. And in games like this, power is relative. Trading will give a massive advantage, and thus for anyone wanting to play the game 'right'...there would be a serious incentive to trade.

And that's without PvP. Once PvP enters the arena (hah) then an entirely new can of worms is opened.

So yeah...I'm fine with BoA. I'm also fine with BoE or BoT. But overall I do feel that the quasi-BoA we seem to be getting now is going to be best for the game.


Trading will always affect others. This is true. This is why you want to give people RELIABLE options to not trading. Just like you want to give people RELIABLE options to playing self found.

In a good system, both avenues should work. People should be able to play self found without feeling stupid for doing so with the possibility of trading, and people should be able to trade without feeling like it's the ONLY way to get anywhere.

There needs to be a balance.
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/16/2013 9:09 AM PST
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2) Rares will still be good.

While legendaries and sets will generally be better, from what we've seen from datamining there will likely be some awesome rares too, and more than likely a near perfect rare could end up being near BiS. Again, we know nothing for sure yet, but this seems to be a reasonable assumption at this point.
Everything we've seen seems to point to the exact opposite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vN-WMctDHQ&t=44m30s

"rarity = power", "legendary and set items are the endgame"

Trading will give a massive advantage, and thus for anyone wanting to play the game 'right'...there would be a serious incentive to trade.
Is trading really that bad though? A lot of people enjoy it, some more than others, but it seems to get a lot of negative attention because of what AH flippers were doing. What the game needs to do is to reward people for killing monsters with things that can't be traded for or bought, so that someone that wants to play self found doesn't feel like the guy trading all day is at a huge advantage. That allows for the guy that wants to trade to have his fun as well, without giving them access to everything just by trading. Paragon leveling works like that, but the game could use a bit more of that sort of thing.

Trading will give a massive advantage, and thus for anyone wanting to play the game 'right'...there would be a serious incentive to trade.
BoA would do the same thing, except replace trading with group play. Encouraging group play might sound like a good thing, but not when a player feels forced into it because the advantage offered there is that great.
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I also made a thread pointing out that rares will be good and can be traded:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10587458770#1

The price for not being able to trade legs may be a fair tradeoff in order to largely prevent botters from ruining this game.
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I also made a thread pointing out that rares will be good and can be traded:
There's been nothing to indicate that they will be good. Sure you might equip them while leveling to 70, but the devs have said that legendaries and sets are the endgame. Read the post above yours if you need to see proof. You guys that keep spouting this "rares are still tradable" drivel are wasting your time.
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Posts: 1,422
11/16/2013 09:08 AMPosted by Providence
I'm happy with this, BUT I would go a step further and at least say that you can trade with your friends regardless of in game or not.


+1
Trading with people on your friends list. This is a good work-around of bound items. Of course the friend you're trading to would have to have been your friend before you found the item.

This would also fit into the "I want to trade with my brother in Country XYZ halfway across the planet," or "I want to trade with my guildmates in 'Clan XYZ."'
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I adore Foo's rants on how account selling is going to explode. Yeah I'm going to pay a grand to a foreign group so they can report it hacked and take it back whenever they want, let alone have to be wary of banwaves.

for reals.
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11/16/2013 09:34 AMPosted by Nishi
I also made a thread pointing out that rares will be good and can be traded:
There's been nothing to indicate that they will be good. Sure you might equip them while leveling to 70, but the devs have said that legendaries and sets are the endgame. Read the post above yours if you need to see proof. You guys that keep spouting this "rares are still tradable" drivel are wasting your time.


I think you're missing out on the fact that while some legendaries might be amazing, I doubt for certain specs you're going to want to be using 100% legendaries. You're probably going to be using the "game changers" that work for your spec and then fill in the gear as you see fit now.

Take a look at COB WDs for example (I know it's not a perfect example). They have to have some kind of mana regen or bat reduction to get the spec to work. Ideally this comes from 4pc zuni or maybe even visage of guiya and an SOJ. Once you have those pieces you just start acquiring whatever else is BIS for each armor slot.

For belt that's WH
For pants it's rares with 150int/200v/65ar/2OS/armor or radius For most COB depth diggers, BT jousting mail and innas pants aren't as good as rares.
Shoulders can be viles or crafted rares
Gloves are rares/crafted rares
Bracers are crafted rares or maybe lacuni
One of the rings can be rare

What I'm saying is that while legendaries will be powerful, I don't think they're always going to be BIS in every situation. Look at every top dps character for each class and look at the fact that theyre all wearing rare rings, probably rare amulets and a couple other rare items. Did you see that rare STR ammy that sold for like 60b? No current legendary neck could touch that thing.

Rares will still be good. They might not be BIS for every slot, but I think you'll still see a healthy mix and match of them across all characters.
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4) Account selling and botting won't become *that* widely spread.

At least nowhere near the extent that item selling is now. Sure, you will always have an extreme minority who will spend ages bypassing the system to do this, but there are a *lot* of safeguards to prevent account trading, and doing it runs a massive risk of getting ripped off.

Botting is another issue entirely. But one of the major reasons that botters are so common is due to how easy it is to sell gold and gear. If that stuff was all BoA, not only would there be less incentive to do it, there would also be a *lot* more risk.


Good luck to them with all their safeguards etc. once it becomes illegal in EU to disallow reselling game accounts you've paid for.

Yes, they will be forced to even make all new safeguards to assure save transfer of account ownership!
Edited by Darlynn#1750 on 11/16/2013 9:51 AM PST
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I really didn't like these changes when they announced them, and I still don't particularly "like" them. The more people I talk with about it and the more I think about it myself the more I think that this solution is a necessary evil.

I just had a friend buy the game recently. He bought TONS of gold on the RMAH and in two days had a character stronger than anything I have on my two accounts after over a year of playing. He quit a day later. "Game is boring." Seriously?

Then, when he was quitting he tried to give me all of his gold and gear... I declined. I knew that if I took it the game would essentially be ruined for me. I'd just hit the same wall he did. He thought he was being a good friend, but in reality it was like a harm dressed up in kindness. Good intentions leading to hell if you will.

I wish we could have open trading and what not, but the propensity and likelihood of people to just spoil the entire expeirence for themselves, and their friends, unwittingly just seems to be too high. That's been the entire theme of Diablo 3 so far. You either struggle to get powerful because the drops are just so insanely random, or you farm gold/buy gold and trade for all your gear leaving you feeling like you get zero upgrades.

Either way, the game got negative responses from people on both sides of the experience. It seems like a great gear system and BoA, or maybe BoT? (some sort of compromise?), is just about necessary to insure a quality experience. It's like... this is why we can't have nice things. They gave us total autonomy, and a massive portion of the player base just spoiled themselves on it. In the end though, it's Blizzard who gets blamed, not themselves for being irresponsible.
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I may be out of the loop, but everyone started talking about BoA since Blizzcon and I can't find any source of Blizzard specifically saying what they planned to do with it. Can anyone provide this?
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What I'm saying is that while legendaries will be powerful, I don't think they're always going to be BIS in every situation. Look at every top dps character for each class and look at the fact that theyre all wearing rare rings, probably rare amulets and a couple other rare items. Did you see that rare STR ammy that sold for like 60b? No current legendary neck could touch that thing.
You're comparing rares/legendaries of today with what is in loot 2.0. Droth did the same thing, and it's laughable. I know that rares are valuable today, but given the strength of the legendary affixes we've seen for loot 2.0, I don't think they will be competitive at all. Everything the devs have shown and said so far seems to support that.
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11/16/2013 09:51 AMPosted by Steve2911
I may be out of the loop, but everyone started talking about BoA since Blizzcon and I can't find any source of Blizzard specifically saying what they planned to do with it. Can anyone provide this?


http://youtu.be/uZ_y4H-Epto?t=20s
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11/16/2013 10:10 AMPosted by Nishi
What I'm saying is that while legendaries will be powerful, I don't think they're always going to be BIS in every situation. Look at every top dps character for each class and look at the fact that theyre all wearing rare rings, probably rare amulets and a couple other rare items. Did you see that rare STR ammy that sold for like 60b? No current legendary neck could touch that thing.
You're comparing rares/legendaries of today with what is in loot 2.0. Droth did the same thing, and it's laughable. I know that rares are valuable today, but given the strength of the legendary affixes we've seen for loot 2.0, I don't think they will be competitive at all. Everything the devs have shown and said so far seems to support that.


I think that what we're both doing is laughable. Neither of us knows how good/bad rares will be because we just haven't seen that many of them.

I do know this though--with smart drops and the rolls on items tightening up to 80-100% instead of 20-100% and with the ability to mystic an item rares will be highly tradable.

Imagine for a second (I'm gonna make up numbers here) you find a ring with 400 dex, 200 vit, 50% crit damage, 50 average damage along with arcane resist and health regen. This ring isn't even bifecta, but you have the ability to reroll the vit to cri, the avg damage to crit, the arc resist to all resist or the regen to something better.

I think rares will have a lot of potential. I mean, how many times did you find an item that was like 1 roll away from being amazing? (I found a 6cc, 30cd,45AR, 47 avg damage 99 dex ring with arcane resist--if that arc res was 9IAS I would have hit the jackpot)

Once again--a totally made up example, but I don't think we know enough about rares YET to made sweeping arguments for or against. ATM I think the best we can say is that they're still in the running.
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11/16/2013 10:12 AMPosted by Amiar
I may be out of the loop, but everyone started talking about BoA since Blizzcon and I can't find any source of Blizzard specifically saying what they planned to do with it. Can anyone provide this?


http://youtu.be/uZ_y4H-Epto?t=20s

Oh. Sounds fine.
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11/16/2013 08:33 AMPosted by Starbird
Firstly, a disclaimer. I am pro-BoA, but not 100%. I wouldn't mind seeing BoE or BoT or some other sort of hybrid approach introduced.

I can be 100% BoA but I completely disagree with BoE and BoT. Either of them are not healthy for the game as they allow for 1-time trade making the rich richer and benefits multiboxers and botters even more than now.

All Leg and Set BoA
This change definitely wasn't anything I was expecting. I was expecting these
1. Target Items are BoA (ie. Bounty award, Hellfire ring, etc.)
- we know where to find them, higher chance to drop, so can't be spread to everyone
2. All 'free' drops are NOT BoA
- hard to find exactly what we need but can be trade for an exchange

They can bind a lot of items but at least give us some hints where to find them...

I got more to say so I will post a link so I don't need to repeat
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10587458770#4
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I just had a friend buy the game recently. He bought TONS of gold on the RMAH and in two days had a character stronger than anything I have on my two accounts after over a year of playing. He quit a day later. "Game is boring." Seriously?

Then, when he was quitting he tried to give me all of his gold and gear... I declined. I knew that if I took it the game would essentially be ruined for me. I'd just hit the same wall he did. He thought he was being a good friend, but in reality it was like a harm dressed up in kindness. Good intentions leading to hell if you will.


I wish there were more people on this forum that were enlightened like this. Heck, I wish there were more people in the world that had a glimmer of enlightenment. Okay, I'll even settle for a handful of people in my small town that just have an open mind to new ideas!
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