Diablo® III

Blizzard, please remove sheet damage and even toughness

04/17/2014 08:14 AMPosted by KhalARon
04/17/2014 08:04 AMPosted by Imperius
Lulz. Yeah he had 350K dps but 1000% elemental damage right? Cause that's about what he would need to be doing T3.

/thread


No, not /thread, you missed the point.

I do 650k sheet DPS. Do you, as a player, judging my DPS output:

1) factor in the +40% to arcane skills?
2) factor in the +15% damage to Arcane Torrent and Magic Missile?
3) factor in the 2 extra missiles I have from my Mirrorball?
4) factor in extra damage from Moonlight Ward, Thunderfury, and Death Watch Mantle?
5) take into account passive bonuses like Arcane Dynamo, Audacity, and Unwavering Will?

Because if you did, you would see that I would, in close combat:

1) put out nearly 6 million DPS from JUST my primary skill, and
2) will max out at close to 250million damage emptying my AP pool via Arcane Torrent with maximum Arcane Dynamo stack.

That's right. If you don't believe, join a game with me and I'll show you.

And there are still idiots on this forum that cling to the false notion that sheet DPS is everything.

It's NOT.


In my experience you are a minority. Very rarely am I getting people with low sheet dps but great gear buffs.
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I don't understand why the sheet 'damage' number is even in the game.

It doesn't correlate to damage per second.
It doesn't correlate to raw damage/(buffed) weapon damage.
It doesn't correlate to effective damage/dps.

It is a completely arbitrary number affected by too many non-damage related factors (IAS anyone?) and not affected by certain ones (elemental %).

If my sheet says 600k yet I'm critting for 3 million multiple times per second doesn't tell you pointless this 'damage' number is, then I don't know what will.

It needs to be entirely worked or removed from the game, falling back to the raw damage numbers of Diablo 1-2 and other Diablo-like action RPGs. This 'DPS' statistic has gotten way out of hand and is horribly inaccurate at its core, and ontop of that we have this 'damage' metric on D3. It's too far out of control to even be saved, honestly.
Edited by DAOWAce#1140 on 4/17/2014 10:44 AM PDT
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you dont want to be in a group full of inflated sheet dps players anyway . amirite?
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04/17/2014 10:37 AMPosted by Suedomsa
Since when is being efficiency a thing in Diablo? A torment 2 rift takes me about twenty minutes to a half hour, I don't consider that slow at all.


Since always maybe.... No, you may not consider yourself slow, thank goodness I'm not you.
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04/17/2014 10:38 AMPosted by Bailrs
what i don't get is the discrepancy of the numbers, my toughness is way lower on the profile than in the game.


That's a bit different. Our Web Team is hard at work troubleshooting bugs where these inconsistencies pop up from time to time. If you notice something in particular, I know they'd really appreciate such reports over in our Website Bug Report forum. :)
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04/17/2014 10:42 AMPosted by GenghisKhan
Since always maybe.... No, you may not consider yourself slow, thank goodness I'm not you.


I'm going to start joining T3 games just for the heck of it with my Wizard.
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04/17/2014 10:25 AMPosted by GenghisKhan
04/17/2014 08:14 AMPosted by KhalARon
No, not /thread, you missed the point.


I think you did.... Players with 800 dps are doing that extra damage too, and they still don't want you because they are still out doing yours and you slow the party down.


You have more paper DPS than I do, but do YOU think you're putting out more damage than me, Spindarella?
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04/17/2014 08:00 AMPosted by JackieTran
Reading through the topic "350k dps WD got kicked out of party", I see a lot of people are still in "D3 vanilla" state. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Sheet damage doesn't mean jack-!@#$ anymore. There are a lot of offensive stats which aren't factored into sheet damage: pet damage, elemental damage, elite damage, skill damage, CDR, resource cost reduction, area damage, etc. I know this has been a known issue, but seeing people still giving WD "700k dps should be minimum for T3" or similar things, I just lol.

Toughness is somewhat a less broken measurement but it needs fix as well.

TL;DR: Either remake sheet damage or remove it. What's the point of a measurement if it gives you wrong information?


It doesn't give you the wrong information. You can inspect that person's gear to see if there are enough "undercover modifiers" to make their damage sufficient.

Pretty much everyone at least has 15-20% elemental damage on their bracers, that's a given. Everyone else in that game more than likely also had elemental damage, elite damage, skill damage, etc. They had all that, AND had a decent overall damage for these to modify.

When they saw a player with 350k profile DPS, they knew that no amount of modifiers could bring that low damage up to enough to farm as efficiently as they did.
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Having something to help make comparing gear easier. That's what those stats are really for. Even without the stats that are not factored in to sheet DPS, skill use alone can drastically change your true damage output.

Sheet numbers are a handy gear comparing tool. It's not Blizzard's fault the player base is full of morons that think it is literal damage potential.
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04/17/2014 09:14 AMPosted by Keldrath
It's a useless tool for advanced players, but for newer players it's quite useful. No reason to scrap it.


Not true. It is still absolutely useful. All the % damage and % skill abilities... what do you think they apply to? THAT USELESS NUMBER.
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In path of exile, they have individual damage #s for each active skill. Which incorporates things like elemental damage. Blizzard could do the same if they really wanted to put effort into the game.
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04/17/2014 10:29 AMPosted by Maximus
Where is that thread "350k dps WD got kicked out of party"?


I've spent a ton of time on this forum and I've never seen this thread. Ever.

EDIT*** Yep, I just saw it. Was posted 3 hours ago. I was definitely sleeping. My bad.

This is my opinion on this whole thing... You were in a T3 group. You are NOT geared for that... AT ALL. You have 275k sheet dps. What do you think you're trying to accomplish? Being in the middle of battle doesn't mean you're doing the damage for T3. What??? lol.

If your character is doing 350k sheet dps. You're not geared to do whatever difficulty you joined. If it was T3 or T2 you are not geared for that, at all. I'm sorry. You joined a group they noticed that stuff wasn't dieing fast enough, evaluated the situation and realized that person was way under geared.

I do this when I run public matches. I do not care what gear you're in. HOWEVER, if I notice stuff isn't dieing within a reasonable amount of time, something is wrong. It is blatantly obvious to the other players there is an issue when it takes more than 45 seconds to kill a shrine elite someone spawned with nemesis bracers.

In public games, people move fast. If you're joining outside of your gear level, you're holding the others back because you either can't survive or you can't put out required damage. T1 would be fine for someone with 350k sheet damage because I know their actual damage is around 600 - 700k in game. T2 needs at least 600k sheet damage, 900k to 1 mill in game. T3 requires 800-900k sheet damage, 1.2 million in game etc etc.

It's not the fact you can't do the difficulty. It's the fact that you joined a public match instead of getting your friends to do the higher difficulty at a slower pace which you could do better on.

I have 858k sheet damage. I do T2 pub matches and things go great. I try T3 or T4, I notice I need better gear. It's not that I COULDN'T do it and complete it. It's me being reasonable with myself about not wanting to hold the group back.

It's just the difference between, "I'm entitled to do higher difficulty so I'm going to join it and that's just too bad for the group if they don't like it" vs "I know my gear isn't good enough for this difficulty and I know there may be a problem if I join one".

Do the right thing, don't join a public match on higher difficulty with gear you know won't line up with others.

If you want to run Torment, run Torment 1. It's the best place for someone with that sheet damage to be. You'll get set items, the torment only items etc. There's NO reason for someone with rares on to be in T2+. If they are, they are either getting carried to feel entitled to run that difficulty and other players don't feel like carring someone who's dead on the floor wanting revives from getting waxed by white mobs or taking minutes to kill white mobs because their not pulling their weight.
Edited by Bijin#1321 on 4/17/2014 11:00 AM PDT
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04/17/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Nevalistis
04/17/2014 08:00 AMPosted by JackieTran
TL;DR: Either remake sheet damage or remove it. What's the point of a measurement if it gives you wrong information?


The DPS, Toughness, and Healing stats are all meant to be general, quick evaluations of your character's power. While you will have a better grasp of exactly what your character is capable of by more closely analyzing your individual stats, these overviews are there to provide this information at a short glance. Similar to the green or red Damage/Toughness/Healing estimations that show up when evaluating a new piece of gear, scrutinizing the details will give you the information needed to make those more precise gearing decisions.

For players that wish to focus a little less on min-maxing, though, those stats are there to provide a sort of surface check. We're certainly open to feedback on how we can improve on these stats, and as indicated in our [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/13532431/patch-204-now-live-4-8-2014#general"]Patch Notes[/url], we are keeping an eye on the stats that weigh into this to make sure they're properly indicative of the amount of benefit they provide.

Bear in mind that some stats are much more tricky to incorporate into this kind of system, with bonus damage versus Elites and bonus Skill damage being good examples. Stats with an orange diamond adjacent to them are not calculated into DPS, Toughness, or Healing, and should be independently considered from these overviews as a result.


That's like looking at your fuel tank or bank account and it saying instead of specific values, yeah you got some, and it's in the middle.

It's saddening that you defend why we should have these misleading numbers there. I've had to train my wife to ignore those numbers and look on the details panel.
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04/17/2014 10:45 AMPosted by KhalARon
You have more paper DPS than I do, but do YOU think you're putting out more damage than me, Spindarella?


I take most elite packs down in 10-15 seconds on t2 solo. About the same as I did in diablo vanilla. I don't run t3, too slow. I also don't run in pubs nor call others names, you exhibit a fine maturity level.
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04/17/2014 10:37 AMPosted by Suedomsa
Since when is being efficiency a thing in Diablo? A torment 2 rift takes me about twenty minutes to a half hour, I don't consider that slow at all.


That is crazy slow.
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04/17/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Nevalistis
While you will have a better grasp of exactly what your character is capable of by more closely analyzing your individual stats, these overviews are there to provide this information at a short glance.


I agree this is true, and the problem is, that's exactly what the community is using it for, which leads to the issue of folks getting kicked from groups. They take a quick glance at someone with 350k dps, without looking at the damage not taken into account by the sheet DPS, and say, welp, this person's got to go.

04/17/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Nevalistis
Bear in mind that some stats are much more tricky to incorporate into this kind of system, with bonus damage versus Elites and bonus Skill damage being good examples.


Also true, but, maybe we could have more than one type of sheet DPS, say, DPS vs elites and DPS vs non elites, or something. I'm sure there are many options worth discussing. Just because it's tricky, doesn't mean it's not potentially worth it, yes?
Edited by ZombieFodder#1256 on 4/17/2014 10:59 AM PDT
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04/17/2014 10:20 AMPosted by Nevalistis
04/17/2014 08:00 AMPosted by JackieTran
TL;DR: Either remake sheet damage or remove it. What's the point of a measurement if it gives you wrong information?


The DPS, Toughness, and Healing stats are all meant to be general, quick evaluations of your character's power. While you will have a better grasp of exactly what your character is capable of by more closely analyzing your individual stats, these overviews are there to provide this information at a short glance. Similar to the green or red Damage/Toughness/Healing estimations that show up when evaluating a new piece of gear, scrutinizing the details will give you the information needed to make those more precise gearing decisions.

For players that wish to focus a little less on min-maxing, though, those stats are there to provide a sort of surface check. We're certainly open to feedback on how we can improve on these stats, and as indicated in our [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/13532431/patch-204-now-live-4-8-2014#general"]Patch Notes[/url], we are keeping an eye on the stats that weigh into this to make sure they're properly indicative of the amount of benefit they provide.

Bear in mind that some stats are much more tricky to incorporate into this kind of system, with bonus damage versus Elites and bonus Skill damage being good examples. Stats with an orange diamond adjacent to them are not calculated into DPS, Toughness, or Healing, and should be independently considered from these overviews as a result.

Maybe some players also run on a (much) higher difficulty because they want a challenge.

So, another option could be to add one or two new game tags. Currently we have "Monster Slaying". Maybe it can be split up into "Speed Farming", "Monster Slaying" and "Bring it on!" or something.

"Speed Farming" for those that want to go fast, running way below their power (like T6 capable players farming on T1), "Monster Slaying" is what most currently want: playing efficiently, and "Bring it on!" .. well .. as it says: "It's hard and will be painfull, but we like it that way!"

I understand both parties in this case. When you want to farm, you don't want others holding you back.

On the other hand, it can be so much fun to run on a much higher setting, undergeared, underpowered, and have a laugh at each other in the party for dying all over the place and yet be able to slowly taking down monsters one by one.

It doesn't always have to be efficient IF all players in the group are drunk enough.. eh .. I mean.. have the same .. mindset .. lol! Heh.. you get what I mean ;)

Of course it's still a gray area, and it doesn't stop leechers, but it might help in finding the right group of players for what you want to do at that moment.

Edit: keep having problems quoting only a part of a message...
Edited by Sjippie#1970 on 4/17/2014 11:00 AM PDT
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04/17/2014 10:35 AMPosted by VILEINFECTED
04/17/2014 10:32 AMPosted by Suedomsa
...

Its the best I can do when I don't feel like trying.


This is Diablo, NOT WOW. Less WoW talk more Diablo 3 low DPS OP talk.

He got kicked because he wasn't helping the group efficiently. It has already been said.


It's actually relevant because Blizzard tends to listen to people like that in both games. I just inspected the Witch Doctor from that thread and his gear is shockingly bad. Level 60 blackthornes amulet, random diamonds in the gem slot, using an enchant on secondary slots. You could scrounge together a better set of yellow gear in a couple of rift runs than what that guy has. It shows a lack of fundamental understanding of game mechanics on his part, and yet Blizzard considers his post "meaningful feedback". If this game is going to be improved Blizzard needs to stop listening to scrubs.
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I think you're dumbing down the issue a little bit, OP.

Here's what happens.

Game starts.

Go fight monsters.

Hmm, these monsters are taking longer to kill than they normally do, or even worse, longer than it would take if I were by myself.

Check team members' dps.

Notice that I, and 2 people have at least 500kdps.

Notice one guy with 350k dps

Vote kick him

He gets booted

Monsters die more quickly.
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04/17/2014 08:00 AMPosted by JackieTran
Reading through the topic "350k dps WD got kicked out of party", I see a lot of people are still in "D3 vanilla" state. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. Sheet damage doesn't mean jack-!@#$ anymore. There are a lot of offensive stats which aren't factored into sheet damage: pet damage, elemental damage, elite damage, skill damage, CDR, resource cost reduction, area damage, etc. I know this has been a known issue, but seeing people still giving WD "700k dps should be minimum for T3" or similar things, I just lol.

Toughness is somewhat a less broken measurement but it needs fix as well.

TL;DR: Either remake sheet damage or remove it. What's the point of a measurement if it gives you wrong information?


I see your point and have no desire to argue with that as I agree completely, but having said that - if someone is voting to kick you as a group (that means they all clicked yes), without looking at other factors like elemental damage and CDR, build, etc - then they probably aren't a group you want to T3 with anyway. Sounds like a bunch of pancakes. This philosophy especially holds quite true with me, as I play hardcore exclusively. Being around non-moron's is key.
Edited by Exomin#1423 on 4/17/2014 11:03 AM PDT
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