Diablo® III

List of Life-on-Hit for Wizards

Posts: 73
This is awesome, it will really help play with different builds.
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07/09/2012 02:31 PMPosted by whoopadeedoo
Twister it is! I just up'ed my LoH to 1200 :) Could increase AS (sitting at 15%) but I'm broke ;)


It might depend on playstyle preference, but i think you can safely skip IAS if you don't have a signature spell. If you do, however, might i humbly suggest prodigy as an excellent alternative to those expensive AP on crit items, or arcane dynamo if you're rich enough to snag some - they use the same coefficients as LoH which you're already optomised for anyway.

And 1200 LoH is heaps!
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07/09/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Ragron
Also pretty sure that the Energy Twisters have had their LoH increased to way more than 10%but I am not sure what it changed to. Anyone know?


I believe the number being thrown around right now is 50%.
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Wicked Wind is currently healing 25% LoH per tick (50% per second)

I *just* checked. Healing me 50% of my LoH each tie the numbers come up (which is once per second IIRC)

Edit: looks like they may all be doing it. This is WAY out of line with other AoE spells :/
Edited by Autocthon#1276 on 7/10/2012 3:37 PM PDT
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07/10/2012 01:53 PMPosted by Autocthon
Edit: looks like they may all be doing it. This is WAY out of line with other AoE spells :/


Meteor is pretty similar, actually.

My theory for twister is that the good coefficient balances out the sub-par damage, though at high levels of gear that almost becomes an irrelevance (eg. using twister with CM to allow spamming of EB definitely makes up for it) - emphasis on high levels of gear, though, meaning that if they do nerf it, i don't think they will nerf it very much. Furthermore, they already did nerf it down to 10% before bumping it back up to 50%, so apparently they are happy with where it is right now, or at least not in a big hurry to change it.

Meteor is just a bit harder to use than other similar spells, so that makes sense too.
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Edit: looks like they may all be doing it. This is WAY out of line with other AoE spells :/


Meteor is pretty similar, actually.

My theory for twister is that the good coefficient balances out the sub-par damage, though at high levels of gear that almost becomes an irrelevance (eg. using twister with CM to allow spamming of EB definitely makes up for it) - emphasis on high levels of gear, though, meaning that if they do nerf it, i don't think they will nerf it very much. Furthermore, they already did nerf it down to 10% before bumping it back up to 50%, so apparently they are happy with where it is right now, or at least not in a big hurry to change it.

Meteor is just a bit harder to use than other similar spells, so that makes sense too.
I'll rephrase:

WW is the go-to spell right now because it gets to infinite DS and AP better than other DoT spells with a far better LoH return.

Also at 50% LoH it LITERALLY cannot break even with lifesteal before 500k DPS. That's a MINOR issue IMO considering the highest breakeven for any other DoT wizards have is about 100k and that's on Meteor. I could understand 25% LoH, but 50% is just ridiculous.

Edit: Is the healing display every second or half second? It seems to be every half second, but damage display is ticking twice as fast so... :/
Edited by Autocthon#1276 on 7/10/2012 11:15 PM PDT
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Pretty sure a "tick" is half a second, and i'm pretty sure the healing numbers you see are displayed every second.

Also, compare the damage of twister to meteor, and then compare those to disintegrate, on say 3 targets or so. I think you'll find damage:coefficient ratios are somewhat even (meteor does more damage but with less procs/healing, and disintegrate even more-so).

But hey, i'm not saying they won't change it. In fact, i think they probably will - just not a lot.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 7/11/2012 6:32 AM PDT
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Desintegrate has 11% per tick per target. (Requires about 5.5 seconds to reach 100% with a 1.0 weapon, but with a big Arcane Power cost & static placement)
Meteor is 25% per second per target. (100% total with a 2 second setup and 3 second dot)
Hurricane is 25% per tick per target (50% per second - 300% total without setup.

My guess is that hurricane & other tornadoes will be lowered to something more reasonable, like 25-30% per tick per target, making it still "good", but not overalmighty great.
Edited by Aranthys#2694 on 7/11/2012 6:53 AM PDT
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Pretty sure a "tick" is half a second, and i'm pretty sure the healing numbers you see are displayed every second.

Also, compare the damage of twister to meteor, and then compare those to disintegrate, on say 3 targets or so. I think you'll find damage:coefficient ratios are somewhat even (meteor does more damage but with less procs/healing, and disintegrate even more-so).

But hey, i'm not saying they won't change it. In fact, i think they probably will - just not a lot.
I have DPS equivalence for 800 LoH vs 2% LS. These are equivalence points in healing per second

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5978370136?page=1

Wicked Wind (in particular) at 10% LoH already needed nearly 100k DPS to breakeven assuming you had 1.0 AS with your LoH. At 25% LoH per tick it's nearly 250k

Compare that to meteor. It has a lot to do with the damage per second, yes, but the returns on WW in terms of procs and LoH seem to be a little "out there" in terms of throughput. I'm not saying "OMG IT'S BROKEN" just saying that it *probably* needs a little drop in terms of the proc viability (to 20% maybe, or maybe 15%), the other twisters make sense being particularly high, wicked wind is just out of place considering how WELL it can be controlled (compare to blizzard which is quite similar, trading stacking for CC)
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Very nice post, thx to OP.

This confirm what i witnessed while i made some quick tests and i'm glad i went to the hp regen way since i'm using a blizzard / hydra / rof build
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I am very disappointed with LoH, after hearing much praise. I have my LoH at 950, but the effect seems to be almost negligible. It just doesnt seem to help all that much really. I know im using Glacial Edge build, and thrown specblades dont really work all that well with LoH but still, it would have been really nice to know this BEFORE I spent millions of LoH-items. Perhaps a warning after the description to make it look something like this:

Life on hit.
"Adds xxx Life after each enemy hit"
(Warning, it doesnt)
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I am very disappointed with LoH, after hearing much praise. I have my LoH at 950, but the effect seems to be almost negligible. It just doesnt seem to help all that much really. I know im using Glacial Edge build, and thrown specblades dont really work all that well with LoH but still, it would have been really nice to know this BEFORE I spent millions of LoH-items. Perhaps a warning after the description to make it look something like this:

Life on hit.
"Adds xxx Life after each enemy hit"
(Warning, it doesnt)
Use skills that are good with LoH

Energy Twister is probably the best right now. And thrown blades kinda sucks across the board.
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07/11/2012 07:40 AMPosted by Autocthon
I have DPS equivalence for 800 LoH vs 2% LS. These are equivalence points in healing per second


From a quick glimpse at your thread it seems like twister, meteor and disintegrate are all sitting relatively close together around the 100k mark ;) (correct me if i'm misinterpreting that)

But yes, i do agree, twister should probably be brought down a little bit, and several other spells should probably be brought up. I can't really blame them (blizzard), i mean it's hard to get a good idea of how this stuff is going to work out without spending hours upon hours of playtesting/theorycrafting every individual setup... but it seems fairly obvious at this point that some spells have very sub-par coefficients with very little advantage in other areas (thrown blades) while others are becoming almost cookie-cutter in their use (wicked wind).

Maybe they'll have a closer look at the coefficients in the 1.0.4 balance patch - we can only hope.
Edited by Dragonfly#1941 on 7/11/2012 11:58 PM PDT
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Tanks a lot! Awesome first post!
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17 Dwarf Hunter
60
Posts: 239

Compare that to meteor. It has a lot to do with the damage per second, yes, but the returns on WW in terms of procs and LoH seem to be a little "out there" in terms of throughput. I'm not saying "OMG IT'S BROKEN" just saying that it *probably* needs a little drop in terms of the proc viability (to 20% maybe, or maybe 15%), the other twisters make sense being particularly high, wicked wind is just out of place considering how WELL it can be controlled (compare to blizzard which is quite similar, trading stacking for CC)


Or alternately, some other Wizard spells need to be improved. It's funny, because ET was basically never used by anybody when its proc rate was low, but I've replaced Meteor with it as soon as I noticed its proc rate went back up, and I'm seeing more Wizards in pubs doing the same.

Meteor has always worked for a Critical Mass tank build, but it required a lot more gear than ET/WW requires to function since Meteor's procs were less frequent. Maybe they've decided that melee Wizard should have a progression from ET -> Meteor, with ET being viable at lower gear levels, to be replaced by Meteor (with a substantial boost in DPS) once you find gear to support it.

The issue we have is that Critical Mass is always hanging over our heads. I think they're reluctant to give us high proc rate coeficients because the idea of perma-stun / perma-archon / perma-shield / perma mirror image seems overpowered.

If I were Blizz, I'd nerf the proc rate on WW a *bit* and leave it high on everything else from ET. I'd also jack up the damage of the non-WW runes a *lot*. Then maybe the damn spell would make sense to use with other runes.
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07/12/2012 07:07 AMPosted by Farmomir
If I were Blizz, I'd nerf the proc rate on WW a *bit* and leave it high on everything else from ET. I'd also jack up the damage of the non-WW runes a *lot*. Then maybe the damn spell would make sense to use with other runes.


Storm chaser is quite good if you use a signature spell. WW/EB is generally more damage if you have enough CC/APoC to support it, but having a signature spell can be a useful utility nonetheless, and Storm chaser has good synergy with Arcane dynamo.
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17 Dwarf Hunter
60
Posts: 239
07/12/2012 07:15 AMPosted by Dragonfly
If I were Blizz, I'd nerf the proc rate on WW a *bit* and leave it high on everything else from ET. I'd also jack up the damage of the non-WW runes a *lot*. Then maybe the damn spell would make sense to use with other runes.


Storm chaser is quite good if you use a signature spell. WW/EB is generally more damage if you have enough CC/APoC to support it, but having a signature spell can be a useful utility nonetheless, and Storm chaser has good synergy with Arcane dynamo.


I'm using Disintegrate / Chaos Nexus with ET/WW currently (used to use blades + meteor) and I greatly prefer that over EB since I have some much needed reach for ranged jerks (never had much way to deal with them when using Meteor / Blades).

Really, with ET as it is, melee Wiz can put pretty much whatever they want on LMB.

I tried Storm Chaser with Blades for a while, and I would say that it's *usable* since you can control where the unleashed twister goes and it procs pretty well, but you give up a *lot* of potential procs by letting the normal twisters run wild, *and* you have to stop and use a SS (which feels lame when you've got that AP generation machine in action).

The question to ask is: why am I using ET at all? The answer right now is "to proc stuff," and for this purpose WW is simply king (assuming you either are or have a tank with you). If they nerf WW and leave the others high, I think Storm Chaser might still be better than anything Meteor can do, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Right now I'm mostly just glad that ET is useful. The proc rate bump on it turned it from complete garbage to something that's very interesting.
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07/11/2012 09:12 PMPosted by Dragonfly
I have DPS equivalence for 800 LoH vs 2% LS. These are equivalence points in healing per second


From a quick glimpse at your thread it seems like twister, meteor and disintegrate are all sitting relatively close together around the 100k mark ;) (correct me if i'm misinterpreting that)

But yes, i do agree, twister should probably be brought down a little bit, and several other spells should probably be brought up. I can't really blame them (blizzard), i mean it's hard to get a good idea of how this stuff is going to work out without spending hours upon hours of playtesting/theorycrafting every individual setup... but it seems fairly obvious at this point that some spells have very sub-par coefficients with very little advantage in other areas (thrown blades) while others are becoming almost cookie-cutter in their use (wicked wind).

Maybe they'll have a closer look at the coefficients in the 1.0.4 balance patch - we can only hope.
My thread did the math at ETwister at 10% LoH/tick

Which means at 25% LoH the actual values are 2.5 times what's listed there (I haven't updated yet, I was waiting o confirmation what the rate was in this thread). Which put the lower breakpoints for ETwister runes at ~150k, with WW at nearly 250k

It's not very clear what LoH coefficients I used, tho I did say I was using the ones in this thread.
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Does anyone know if channeled abilities like Ray of Frost gain more Life on Hit with a higher attack speed? Obviously regular spells do, but I'm just not sure about Ray of Frost because it seems like you're saying it only does 66% per second.

Also shouldn't Ray of Frost be 100% because it's single target? Silly Blizzard.
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Stick!
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