Diablo® III

Simplistic Item System Analysis!

*signs

A shame that Blizzard, as proven, is probably not listening (oh they do sort of listen, but they seem to only half listen, and the truly intelligent pieces of proof that they have majorly screwed up, like this one, will likey go ignored. They claim they are working on fixing the items, but they can and will only do so much, and some of their solution may be extremely backward I'm guessing, if past "decisions" are any indication).


Here is an example of what I think they are gonna do to legendaries which I already stated won't change the overall issue:

Old Legendary (Random stats, just messing around)

35 Vitality
235 Armor
178 HP Regen per second
68 Strength
13 Magic Find
15 Gold Find

New Legendary (Rofl)

100 Vitality !!!! (UBER)
350 Armor !!!! (SRSLY?!?)
235 HP Regen per second (U BEN LISTENING 2 US)
100 Intellect (Where my strength go?)
21 Magic find (So we can find more of the same items, vitality, all resist, str/dex/int, single resist items)
25 gold find (So we can use the auction house and not actually go out and play the game)
ok i agree with the item issue but u have to remember how D2 was when it first came out. the game was flat out terrible and had absolutely no creativity. Later once the expansion came out is when they started to throw creative items in like BOTD, Faith, Infinity, Insight, Grief, Enigma, Coh, and others. im sure their also going to throw in different items that you can put into sockets as well. my advice...save ur money, buy 1 badass design and mass create it to make a profit. i would also recommend going with an item that is specific to 1 class like a wand or source because u will have fewer people trying to produce these and be able to raise the bar on the price urself. just hold out guys this game will be even more badass just give it some time.
Diablo III is actually a fun game. Playing through the quests, killing bosses, so the core of the gameplay is there. (Thank god) Diablo II was shorter than Diablo III. You could do Act 1-5 in like 2 hours, yet players wanted to do it over and over over, literally 600+ times. Diablo III has that core game that I can see players wanting to do just like Diablo II.

The problem arises with the item system. The reason why Diablo II players wanted to do the same thing over and over, was because there was always a chance to find cool items. In normal, nightmare, and hell mode.

-High runes in hell mode.

-Sets/Uniques across all acts.

-Mercenaries (Fun to gear up and use in multiplayer games, no idea why followers can't be used)

Now, I'm not saying make Diablo III exactly like Diablo II with a rune system ect... I'm just saying, Diablo III's item system is very boring and provides no motivation to farm anything. You beat hell act 4, you beat inferno act 1, you hit a brick wall, fine. When you nerf inferno and more players are doing full inferno clears, the ultimate reason they will stop playing is not that it's easy (because Diablo II wasn't ultra hard), because there is nothing to farm. There are cool items, no fun stats, no auras on armor, no chance on hit, no chance on being hit, no followers in multiplayer, low drop rate due to auction house....

At this point, you can have every monster in the game drop a legendary, set, and rare all at once and it won't change the fact that the item system is boring. It will just give junk a new color.
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/7/2012 2:37 PM PDT
06/07/2012 02:31 PMPosted by Karrthus22
ok i agree with the item issue but u have to remember how D2 was when it first came out. the game was flat out terrible and had absolutely no creativity. Later once the expansion came out is when they started to throw creative items in like BOTD, Faith, Infinity, Insight, Grief, Enigma, Coh, and others. im sure their also going to throw in different items that you can put into sockets as well. my advice...save ur money, buy 1 badass design and mass create it to make a profit. i would also recommend going with an item that is specific to 1 class like a wand or source because u will have fewer people trying to produce these and be able to raise the bar on the price urself. just hold out guys this game will be even more badass just give it some time.


Diablo II at launch had issues, yes. I expected Diablo III to have issues. The issue I remember most at launch of Diablo II was that hell mode was easy mainly because of life leech. People would stack life leech and just whirlwind to victory on a barbarian.

The thing is, Diablo II was still fun to clear Chaos Sanctuary 8,000+ times in a group. Make new characters and gear them up with the gear you found on your main.

Diablo II still has issues that I wish were fixed. The fact that a hammerdin is like the king of all things. It's funny how I have an urge still to go back and play yet another Diablo II ladder season. Gear up a hammerdin, then transfer all the uber gear I find to my main, a bowazon who uses valkyrie and strafe with a windforce.

Diablo III is a great game, this post merely provides feedback on an issue I feel is the biggest problem. Diablo is an item finding game. If the items are bland and boring, the game will be bland and boring, regardless how fun clearing Act 1 to 4 is. Diablo II always had cool items, start to finish and they just kept adding to it. More uniques, more sets, runewords in LOD...

Another thing is that there have been like 20+ GREAT mods for Diablo II. All which had about 500+ more items than the normal game. Some also added things like "Gem words" where adding certain gems to items created a different item with cool stats.

Diablo III, being released in 2012, having soooo many resources to take ideas from, soooooo much time to work on the game, they came up with a simplistic item system like this. That really needs to be seen. If they took 6 years to create THIS, how long will it take for them to understand that the items themselves are just boring and simple? Do they even see that?

Do you really wanna just find items with:

Vitality
Str/Int/Dex
All Resists
Single Resists

And if they make the game easier, it will become this:

Vitality
Str/Int/Dex
4 Random stats which are pretty much as simple as you can get. Life regen, armor, thorns...

They didn't take anything "to the next level". The item system could have been soooo over the top insanely cool that the entire world could have stood in awe of how fun it was.

Like:

1-Handed Sword

200 Vitality
200 Strength
15% attack speed
5% chance on hit to release a nova that deals 50% weapon damage and heals all party members with 20 yards for 5% of there HP.

Shield

20% chance to block
Blocks 3500-5000 damage
50% chance on block to surround your body in thorns, can walk through monsters for 2 seconds and returns damage equal to 3% of targets max health.
200 Vitality

A game where not only the skill system is broad, customizable, FUN, and different but the items also have a level of depth and skills to compliment party play and makes the player feel epic. If we continue the same formula, games will remain linear. D3, D4, D5, the next chapter of the same thing. Diablo 2 took Diablo 1 to the next level. Starcraft 2 took STarcraft 1 to the next level. Diablo III took a step back and didn't really change anything, instead, made it simpler.
I agree

X - Vit
X - Dex/Int-Str
x - All resist
x - 1 resist
x - Magic find (optional)

Otherwise, vendor trash


Let's create a loot equation for Diablo III's end game.

X = your current value

Formula for end game Diablo III item upgrades. (6 years in development)

X+1 Vitality
X+1 Str/Dex/Int
X+1 All Resists
X+1 Single Resists
X+1 Magic Find (Optional)
X+1 Gold find (Optional)

Where optional could be any stat X+1

Diablo II didn't have the X+1 item system. =-\
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/7/2012 3:05 PM PDT
Agree with OP BUMP
If inferno stays difficult and they add more flavor stats, here is the end game loot formula.

X+1 Vitality
X+1 Str/Dex/Int
X+1 All Resists
X+1 Single Resists
X+1 New Fun Stat
X+1 New fun stat

If inferno is nerfed and becomes easier but they add more flavorful item stats.

X+1 Vitality
X+1 Str/Dex/Int
X+1 New Fun Stat
X+1 New Fun Stat
X+1 New Fun Stat
X+1 New Fun Stat

As you can see, the more flexable (easier) the game is, the more customization we actually get.

The same concept can be applied to skill choices. Currently, we NEED certain builds for inferno, if it were easier, you could choose any skill combo you want.

1.) Do you really want a hard but simplistic game in terms of itemization and skill choice?

-OR-

2.) Do you want an easier game with a ton of flexability and customization for item builds and skill builds?

Ultimately, the best choice in my opinion would be to add a ton of new stats, chance on hit, chance on being hit, aura items, ect (Make sure they are powerful)... Keep inferno really hard, but have more items drop in nightmare/hell mode so you can prepare for inferno which could be "End game".

Hell mode could drop a bunch of powerful items with cool procs, auras, ect... Once you gear up in hell, take your unique item build and skill build, join a coop game and work together to beat inferno. With 4 players, all who have cool items with procs, auras, the game becomes more fun.

Inferno would drop "uber" items.

Add to that followers in multiplayer, gg.... #1 game of all time.
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/7/2012 3:20 PM PDT
Raserei:

I think you nailed it.

Diablo 2 allowed players to have more control over their stat budget. You could build an Amazon to be an amazing cow killer and dump everything into Dex and just enough to equip whatever you needed to carry for a bow/armor and be a glass cannon that died everytime a cow slapped you OR you could be more well rounded and allocate towards survival. You could also build a character completely around expected gear to min/max.

So rather than the stat allocation that we had full control over we now have to locate our stats on gear leaving only 2 mods to be random and they usually are resists or magic find. For most crafted items you get 4 mods initially and have to locate books to get up to 6. This means you're crafting expensive crap that generally rolls with garbage mods like Str/Dex/Int/No Vita/+2 yards pickup range.

Honestly the removal of talent trees was on the good side, but removing the stats was wrong. If they had left the allocation in with a way to restat the character for a fee, then the gear wouldn't be so boring as to require you to locate a perfect fit. I could have my +% to undead or demons mods, FHR, IAS, FCR, bonus stat mods, and crap that would keep me hunting forever and allow me to fine tune a character's stats to my own liking.

Now it's just like you said... Upgrades are just Vita+1, Str+1, All Res+1.
Raserei:

I think you nailed it.

Diablo 2 allowed players to have more control over their stat budget. You could build an Amazon to be an amazing cow killer and dump everything into Dex and just enough to equip whatever you needed to carry for a bow/armor and be a glass cannon that died everytime a cow slapped you OR you could be more well rounded and allocate towards survival. You could also build a character completely around expected gear to min/max.

So rather than the stat allocation that we had full control over we now have to locate our stats on gear leaving only 2 mods to be random and they usually are resists or magic find. For most crafted items you get 4 mods initially and have to locate books to get up to 6. This means you're crafting expensive crap that generally rolls with garbage mods like Str/Dex/Int/No Vita/+2 yards pickup range.

Honestly the removal of talent trees was on the good side, but removing the stats was wrong. If they had left the allocation in with a way to restat the character for a fee, then the gear wouldn't be so boring as to require you to locate a perfect fit. I could have my +% to undead or demons mods, FHR, IAS, FCR, bonus stat mods, and crap that would keep me hunting forever and allow me to fine tune a character's stats to my own liking.

Now it's just like you said... Upgrades are just Vita+1, Str+1, All Res+1.


Well, in the current system, I don't think changing it to have stat allocation would work because how would they determine how many stats we could get? Would this also include removing stats like vit/dex from items? Honestly, the vitality/dex/str/int isn't the issue for me ultimately. It's needing 4 stats and you get 6 random and the 2 random you can get are boring.

Read what I posted above your post. It explains how if the game was easier, it would actually give us more flexability with stats and skill choice. It's just lame design. Jay Wilson said there is only so much you can do with isometric games and difficulty, especially with the fast paced combat nature of Diablo. I'm not really sure we need a super difficult game if it's going to cost us fun and exciting items and customization with skills/items.
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/7/2012 3:38 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
14800
Posts: 230
+1 to this post, especially the medianXL comment.
Diablo 2 was really enjoyable with item affix abilities. Draculs, Enigma, Last Wish, Wolfhowl, the unique alone that completely changes how barb was played, more items which could all determine a skill build and the character's intended purpose. Chaos Sanc clearing Barb's anyone?

Brother Laz definitely expanded item affixes perfectly in which made the game's end game a lot more enjoyable and expanded classes beyond their skill builds into item builds as well which expanded character viability as well!

It's a shame diablo 3 has none of this, really.
Edited by Auron#1514 on 6/7/2012 4:02 PM PDT
15% Chance on hit to launch a meteor on the monster and hit all enemies within 12 yards for 65% weapon damage.


!@#$ like this woulkd be cool but we're talking Blizzard here


but we have a 1% chance to blind bro. 1%

That is 1/100th chance that a monster cant see me bro

Ill be like a stealth ninja
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/7/2012 4:27 PM PDT
I pretty much agree. I'm working, slowly, through Act II inferno and am realizing that the excitement and rewarding nature of seeing rare drops is so greatly diminished. I now know that 90% of the time it is just the equivalent of a large pile of gold (that takes up inventory space...), 9% of the time I might be able to sell it for a couple extra thousand on AH, and 1% of the time (maybe) it is a slight, very incremental increase over what I have, or worth enough on AH to get me something that is.

Until ilvl 63 items start dropping in places I can actually find them (very, very rarely) I can go a couple of nights without really feeling like I've done much to improve my situation. A couple 100k gold isn't much when anything worth getting is millions.

If they can't break their drop system for risk of losing profits on RMAH, then yes, at least make fun drops. Give me a reason, any reason, to stop doing butcher/maghda runs over and over. Let me switch out inferno gear to run around with friends in Hell and spawn some ridiculous situations with goof % on hit abilities and things.


Absolutely Agree. Thank you for the thoughtful analysis of what is wrong with the Loot System.
While I agree with everything (most things) that have been mentioned, I wonder if a reforge system would be something cool to add flavor to the drops. Obviously some of those one off 'random stats' are fun and unique but if we could manipulate the gear a little bit to reduce an unused stat to boost 'whirlwind damage by 2%' kind of thing? I know it kind of goes along with a WoW mentality (perhaps) but it's just something I've thought about over the past few days. Also, if they could make the blacksmith in-game useful and if you could forge items with certain gems to cause 'rare stat procs' like 'during whirlwind gain 10% strength' or something interesting. It would alleviate some cookie cutter things and perhaps even allow for something interesting to happen besides building a spec, finding main stat/resist/vit gear.

Also, I'm enjoying the game quite a bit. The core is there and that's why I don't find the need to go bat !@#$ crazy on the forums.
https://twitter.com/#!/angryrobotics

Jay Wilson responded to a message I sent him with a link to my other post. He said "we've said everything we're going to say about items for now in the blog and AMAA."

I respect that he took the time to repond to me. They have so many things to work on. While his post doesn't really answer much, I feel as though they understand the players want more "depth" to the item system.

They did respond to "on-hit" effects in the reddit and they responded to the fact that legendaries aren't that great.

The future looks bright for Diablo III.

I will probably switch over to full-time hardcore mode for a few months while we see more patches. I'm having a blast level characters 1-60, and f they die, just gives me another reason to level again. (Since the level 60 inferno item hunt atm is boring)
While I agree with everything (most things) that have been mentioned, I wonder if a reforge system would be something cool to add flavor to the drops. Obviously some of those one off 'random stats' are fun and unique but if we could manipulate the gear a little bit to reduce an unused stat to boost 'whirlwind damage by 2%' kind of thing? I know it kind of goes along with a WoW mentality (perhaps) but it's just something I've thought about over the past few days. Also, if they could make the blacksmith in-game useful and if you could forge items with certain gems to cause 'rare stat procs' like 'during whirlwind gain 10% strength' or something interesting. It would alleviate some cookie cutter things and perhaps even allow for something interesting to happen besides building a spec, finding main stat/resist/vit gear.

Also, I'm enjoying the game quite a bit. The core is there and that's why I don't find the need to go bat !@#$ crazy on the forums.


Exactly, It's not like Diablo III is "OMG fail" like some people are posting on the forum. It isn't even close to that. I'm merely posting feedback, being a huge Diablo fan, I feel the item system could be far more interesting and a bit less like World of Warcraft.
Posts: 189
This is why I'm looking forward to what they said about adding more unique properties to legendaries.
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