Diablo® III

Simplistic Item System Analysis!

06/08/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Keef
There is a sophisticaiton and depth to the item drops that i think only a new expansion will have a chance to resolve ergo Diablo 2 LoD.


That is what I'm afraid of. Having to wait 1.5 years for a better item system...

They had 10 years to play Diablo 2, analyze when it was a great game and when it was just a good game.

They also had 6+ years of development to plan out items and how they tie into the game. While this was acceptable at Diablo II's launch, one might think you would learn from past mistakes. Diablo III should have shipped with a ton of cool items, tons more affixes then what there is now, more depth. Legendaries in there current state, shouldn't have been shipped with the game. Even the level 60 sets, the ones that involve weapons, only have 350-575 DPS, that wont get you anywhere.

Diablo III is a good game now, and with changes will become great like Diablo II, 1-60 on all the classes was a fun experience, but there is no meta game. RMAH isn't a meta game if the items you find are boring.

I think there priority after the Inferno tuning patch (1.03), should be an entire patch focused on the following:

1.) Adding more affixes, chance on hit, chance on being hit, item auras, re-animate on monster kill.

2.) Followers in multiplayer and a slew of fun follower only items in all slots (Weapon, rings, amulets, ect.) Inferno 4 player co-op with 4 followers would bring back that 8 player co-op feel sort of but also be fun to show off your follower and it's gear.

3.) Obviously a re-tuning of sets and legendaries.

4.) Blacksmith should be able to craft all tiers of gear. (ilvl 63, have it require 1 fiery brimstone or something.)

And after that patch, the next thing up should be class tuning. Obviously there are a lot of skills underpowered, cost to much resource, low weapon damage, or just plain useless.

One of my favorite spells in the game has an ultra low weapon damage causing it to be nearly useless. (Corpse Spiders)
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/8/2012 1:05 PM PDT
Well I think that they created an awesome game with a great potential which is in its early phase kind of. I would just like some confirmation that this is going to get more depth and complexity in the future.

If the item system does not change, it will never become phenomenon like the previous Diablo games. People will not chase +5 int for months or even years.
Well I think that they created an awesome game with a great potential which is in its early phase kind of. I would just like some confirmation that this is going to get more depth and complexity in the future.

If the item system does not change, it will never become phenomenon like the previous Diablo games. People will not chase +5 int for months or even years.


I want to chase a ceremonial dagger for my witch doctor so powerful, by wielding it, my character becomes a god.

100-200 Intellect
100-200 Vitality
5-15 Mana Regen Per Second
7-10% Chance on monster kill to summon a zombie dog
20-40% Magic Find
Grants an aura to all party members that grant a 1% chance on monster kill to spawn a treasure goblin.

Or

Grants an aura to all party members that grants a 5% chance on champion kill to spawn a resplendent chest. (How cool would it be for monsters to have a chance to spawn a treasure chest or a treasure goblin.)

There should be so many items in the game, so many varieties of builds, that players wanna be like "OMG, I wanna try that item combination!"

Like a gold find character that grants his party buffs from his items and skills, but has medium damage.

Or a chance on hit stacked barbarian who uses all attack speed so he gets more procs and has medium damage.

Or a wizard who has high HP, a shield, and utilizes lightning armor to want to get hit, to compliment this, she uses chance on BEING hit items that grant her special things, such as damage or buffs.
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/8/2012 1:20 PM PDT
Unfortunately, in current state your Witch Doctor would become god if the weapon had 3k dps and no other stats at all...it is not interesting enough.
Well, actually, people want to chase "something" which they "know" exists and also makes their char special. The itemization is too generic. I know i need primary stat + vit + resists for a powerful char, but that does not make my char special at all. Even if i've never seen a Zod or a WF etc. in quite a few years of playing, knowing that they "exist" made me look for them.
I continue to agree with most of the things most of the people here are saying which, from what I've seen in many many threads, is a very rare thing. So props to everyone for that.

But as per the discussion, I think Bliz kind of fenced themselves into a tight spot. The people who have been playing D2 for a decade, or who saw it after it had been worked on for years and years, came in with expectations of the item system. To deliver something of that caliber is obviously more work, but not insurmountable. They could have done it, easily. I'm not in the industry, but I imagine now that every major release gets DLC and wow is on its 30th expansion, there is definitely an expectation that $60 bucks buys you a game that, if designed to be playable for hundreds of hours, will evolve over time. If the item system for D3 started super awesome, they would have a lot less room to maneuver and making more exciting content for down the road would become more difficult. It's probably better, in this age of patches and DLC and expansions, to start out by being recognized as imperfect but with potential than to start strong and dry up. They want excitement to be generated for years.

All that said, the fact that such robust discussion is happening not even a month after release tells me that this was not an oversight, but planned. I doubt things will change radically (I'm sure your stats will still be gear-based) but one way or another they need to spice things up for the long run to be viable.

Im 100% with you Raserei, I'm building up alts now because, at least until 1.03, farming with my main is fruitless. A couple hours a night is a few hundred thousand gold, which means less and less every day. The X+1 system is so boring, a lot of time the only choices I make are if +x more resist or vit/dex is worth losing my magic find. Yea, thats right.

The most exciting thing on my gear is a slightly higher chance to find more underwhelming gear. I got a legendary dagger drop last night and actually rolled my eyes before I picked it up because I was 90% sure I'd rather it be a rare. I was right.

tl;dr
I agree. I think the current state of loot is explicitly by design so they can generate more excitement down the line. Not mad, but given the history of D2 I can't help but be a little insulted by just how minimal the system was at launch.
06/08/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Grace
Well, actually, people want to chase "something" which they "know" exists and also makes their char special. The itemization is too generic. I know i need primary stat + vit + resists for a powerful char, but that does not make my char special at all. Even if i've never seen a Zod or a WF etc. in quite a few years of playing, knowing that they "exist" made me look for them.


Exactly. Out of the years I played LOD, I found a total of 2 high runes. And in all the ladder seasons, there was only one ladder season where I put all my effort and got a fully decked out hammerdin which then farmed for an epic bowazon.

My hammerdin had everything you could imagine but it took a lot of effort, trading, and time. It was fun and memorable. The best part is that I finally got the ability to play a decked out bowazon which is by far the most fun I ever had in Diablo II. She had every charm, windforce, auras on her mercenary, a valkyrie... She casted diablo's hellfire very often when using strafe. I felt like I wasn't just a bowazon, I felt like a godly bowazon because of all the auras and chance on hit procs. Moving foward, casting strafe and seeing my character have 3 different glows underneath me as I leave behind a path of fire from hellfire procs from my torch. Truly epic.

And after I had all the gear, one might say "your done"... Well, I cleared chaos sanctuary and baal in 8-player games for 2 months straight. It was just fun to show off my power.
I continue to agree with most of the things most of the people here are saying which, from what I've seen in many many threads, is a very rare thing. So props to everyone for that.

But as per the discussion, I think Bliz kind of fenced themselves into a tight spot. The people who have been playing D2 for a decade, or who saw it after it had been worked on for years and years, came in with expectations of the item system. To deliver something of that caliber is obviously more work, but not insurmountable. They could have done it, easily. I'm not in the industry, but I imagine now that every major release gets DLC and wow is on its 30th expansion, there is definitely an expectation that $60 bucks buys you a game that, if designed to be playable for hundreds of hours, will evolve over time. If the item system for D3 started super awesome, they would have a lot less room to maneuver and making more exciting content for down the road would become more difficult. It's probably better, in this age of patches and DLC and expansions, to start out by being recognized as imperfect but with potential than to start strong and dry up. They want excitement to be generated for years.

All that said, the fact that such robust discussion is happening not even a month after release tells me that this was not an oversight, but planned. I doubt things will change radically (I'm sure your stats will still be gear-based) but one way or another they need to spice things up for the long run to be viable.

Im 100% with you Raserei, I'm building up alts now because, at least until 1.03, farming with my main is fruitless. A couple hours a night is a few hundred thousand gold, which means less and less every day. The X+1 system is so boring, a lot of time the only choices I make are if +x more resist or vit/dex is worth losing my magic find. Yea, thats right.

The most exciting thing on my gear is a slightly higher chance to find more underwhelming gear. I got a legendary dagger drop last night and actually rolled my eyes before I picked it up because I was 90% sure I'd rather it be a rare. I was right.

tl;dr
I agree. I think the current state of loot is explicitly by design so they can generate more excitement down the line. Not mad, but given the history of D2 I can't help but be a little insulted by just how minimal the system was at launch.


Just a confirmation of this being implemented in the future would make me feel comfortable.
This suggestion is well thought out and could make item hunting a lot more fun!
06/07/2012 02:12 PMPosted by Mog
Blizzard should just hire Brother Laz, seeing as how he pretty much hit the nail on the head for what we'd look for in terms of end game content.


If I could "Like" this twice, I would.
Item system in D3 is extremely boring and unexciting. I feel that blizzard just wanted to make something as simple as possible and in the process failed to make something that's fun as well.
I mean, they couldn't be arsed separating physical from magical attack speed. Because people would be so confused if you had phys. IAS and FCR. Amirite?

I miss:

-chance on hit
-chance on being hit
-auras
-items with charges
-breakpoints (math freak)
-proper mercs, not just some nublet followers.
-items growing with clvls (skully etc)

etc etc etc.

D3 ITEMIZATION IS BORING AND A HUGE STEP BACKWARDS FROM D2. Thats all. caps intended.
As soon as you complete Act 1 inferno there should be a message that comes up :-

Please Insert Your Credit Card Details To Continue.


There isn't a single item in this game that screams "OMG I need that item!". In Diablo II, people spent real money because it was soooo fun to have the powerful items.

TONS of chance on hit spells
TONS of aura's on armor for you AND your mercenary AND mercenaries were in multiplayer
TONS of chance on being hit items
TONS of cool mechanics that weren't required but helped mold your build. (Crushing blow for example)

List goes on...

Diablo III epic item would be:

200 Vitality
200 Strength
80 All Resists
50 Fire Resist
25% MF
25% GF

Boring BUT I can see where there design was and it has a lot to do with the skills (My guess). They might have thought since we get 6 skills and a lot of runes, items don't need to be as epic as Diablo II. Good try if this is true, but that isn't right.

If they did add more epic items and depth to the item system AND topped that with followers in multiplayer AND follower only items that are also epic, game would be a lot more fun end game.

Imagine a 4 player team with 4 followers (Can you say, 8-player co-op, sorta?)

Imagine all 4 of the followers having follower only items that had auras for the entire team that did cool stuff. Players would feel more unique than what they are now.


This!

A lot of people are very angry that this game is essentially designed around the AH in regards to drops, and while it is kind of stupid and upsetting in some ways, it is what it is.

The problem is though that Blizzard is on crack if they think people are going to spend much real money on the horrendous items in this game. If I have to farm gold, or spend real money to get good items reliably and sanely, fine......But as it is, the items are so bland, boring, and in the case of Legendary items and set items.....garbage.

If they want us to spend money, they need to make the items worth spending money on. Right now they're not. At all.
I would rather go play D2 for the rest of time than spend real money on any item in this game. If that is their plan then I'll just do something else.
I agree. Diablo 3's drop system is just silly. I dont think i have ever gotten a drop that i have been able to use. i usually just go to the auction house and find something instead that is 10x better than what i got. its just really annoying not being able to get a rare drop that one can actually use themselves that is better than some of the stuff for that lvl in the AH. IDK its just a little bit upsetting and kind of makes the drops no fun.
I think that we should get the full game for the $60 we paid. not pay $60 and then have to pay money on top of that to get amazing items. thus-far i feel like i got ripped off. If they really think their fan base is going to want to Pay money for a game and then keep having to pay money on top of it they are either retarded or really smart. because i am not going to be playing along with many people like me if its going to be that way. but hey maybe people who are obsessed with spending all their money in real life will be able to cover the other people giving up on the game.
06/08/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Landshark
I think that we should get the full game for the $60 we paid. not pay $60 and then have to pay money on top of that to get amazing items. thus-far i feel like i got ripped off. If they really think their fan base is going to want to Pay money for a game and then keep having to pay money on top of it they are either retarded or really smart. because i am not going to be playing along with many people like me if its going to be that way. but hey maybe people who are obsessed with spending all their money in real life will be able to cover the other people giving up on the game.


bro, you miss the point... why would you pay money for 5 more resists and 15 more vitality? is that fun?

people paid money in diablo 2 because the items were insanely fun... obviously enigma was the #1 fun item but there were sooooooooo many more. D3 has zero fun items, it just has world of warcraft items..... It is like that used WoW's stat formula due to WoW's success.... once they realize diablo isnt wow, they will ultra revamp D3, hopefully it wont be too late, then again, its never too late with blizzard games, they have a special fanbase that sacrifices for them to wait until its good. (just look at wows release)
Edited by Raserei#1287 on 6/9/2012 8:13 AM PDT
Raserai....you...are....the best.

I spent years playing D2 and then years anticipating D3. I was expecting the ultimate item hunt dungeon crawl of all time. Merely stacking stats is not an enjoyable reason to replay a game. I really really really hope they don't wait until an expansion to give us what we want, cause I doubt the playerbase will last that long. I know I probably won't :(

Please good Blizzard folks, read and re-read each of Raserai's posts in this thread. Examples of the kind of jaw-dropping drool-inducing items we were expecting when we pre-ordered this game.
The important thing to take away from this thread is that items should be fun/exciting/interesting rather than "numerically superior to [X] gear I was wearing when I found it".
I agree with Raserei that the items, as they exist, are kind of boring. I didn't start playing Diablo 2 until right around patch 1.10, so I can't say much about the early days of D2. However, item hunting was what the game was all about. I was much more of a person who went for the odd builds that nobody had thought of yet but ended up being incredibly fun. I don't know how many characters I built just because I found an item (or saw online) and went "huh, wonder what I could do with that....". I probably spent more time learning about the game and the items in the Arreat Summit than I did actually playing it, working out the math to see if a certain build would work or not. And if it was close, build it anyway, just because it would be fun to see, even if it meant a month of leveling and trading to get the right items, and the build failed because of something I hadn't thought about. In its current state, I don't really know if Diablo 3 can invoke that level of interest in me.

I actually like the AH, since it has the potential to make any build I could want to do possible (there were a couple of things that I wanted to try in D2 that I couldn't, just because the items were almost impossible to get. Such as Stormlash "you mean stormshield?" "No, stormLASH" "Oh, never heard of it..."), but the problem is, there aren't any builds like that. And trying a new build means going back to town, enabling elective mode, and hitting "s", although I have yet to do even that much for any items I've gotten.

I'm still having a ton of fun playing through as my Wizard, trying to beat A2 Inferno before the 103 hits, sort of as a point of pride, but so far I haven't seen anything that has really ignited my imagination the same way that D2 did.

To be fair, D2 is a completely different game now than it was upon release, and aside from LoD, all of the new stuff was free (patch 1.10 is still the most awesome free expansion pack of all time, in my mind, even if it did take a loooong time to get here). Hopefully D3 will evolve as much. Like you said, a lot of the elements are in place, they just need a little more (to borrow a term from the mad hatter) "Muchness". I can be patient, just not sure if I can be ten years patient....
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