Diablo® III

I still think Zoltun Kulle was good.

I would ahve felt it more fair it the two fat guys had not helped him jump me
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Bad story telling is bad story telling. It has nothing to do with "perspective".


this.
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I don't know why everyone is saying ZK is so innocent when he was resurrected I was like, "Please bro don't attack me we can work together!" Then he freaking attacks me anyway so I had no choice but to slay him.
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Sure he might have been a power-hungry Horadrim renegade, but he did aim to save mankind from the consequences of meaningless, never ending battles of angels of demons and their plots against Nephalem.

Ensuring the safety and well being of one's race, now that's something I would hardly call evil.


Zultun Kulle made a soulstone that could hold souls of angels. It is also strongly suggested that he committed quite a few evil acts in his attempts to become a god. The decisions he made and the things he did made him evil. Yes, he was helpful, but for all the wrong reasons.

However I believe the objective was to create characters where the line of good and evil is very easily blended. It is by intention that many characters in diablo are gray. You are suppose to think Adria is good. After all she is very motherly. But isn't she just a bit too motherly and one sided? Every time I replay the game I see more and more of her true character seeping out. Through much of Act 2 I always felt she was pushing Leah just a little too hard and often questioned her. In the Bazaar she calls saving people a fools errand and discourages the hero from doing it.

Anyhow, props to Blizzard. ZK is still evil evil evil.
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Zoltun Kulle is my favorite NPC in D3 (best voice, best dialogue, dark and shadowy). Period. It's too bad his (second) life ended so quickly and I'm holding out hope that a shard of the black soul stone pierced his exploded remains and we will see him again in whatever expansion Blizz is cooking up.
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08/29/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Shisno
Lawful-Evil in the DnD scheme of things. "Lawful" is about goal setting... his goals are for order and security. Peace if you will. "Evil" is about action. He disregards the welfare of those he's trying to protect and wants to master over them.


I'm not an expert on DnD, but wouldn't he be Chaotic Good? My understanding of it is Lawful evil = Evil motives through lawful means. Chaotic Good = Good motives by any means necessary.


You would count ZK as Chaotic Good, leaning Chaotic Neutral. It would depend on where he would have made the line had he succeeded.
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Zultan Kulle was RIGHT ALL ALONG.
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I thought he was a cool dude too until he tried to kill me. tsk tsk
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I think he's good too!
Feel bad having to kill him again the moment he is back from death.
Edited by Kwags#6339 on 8/29/2012 6:58 PM PDT
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I think he demonstrated one of the more complex characters in the game. Think about how he manages to twist things slightly and even point out how the other side must be wrong, therefore, in some way he must be right.

One of my favorite twists that occur in the Archives is when he explains that "I had to sacrifice much...". Obviously we see the ceremonial tables, so I presume the sacrifice was others in experiments. Then later he mentions that the Angel of Justice would not sacrifice us needlessly. So a sacrifice is alright in his book for the advancement of his purpose, just so long as it's not a needless waste of life.

So he offers us power to tempt us, at the same time pointing out the weakness of both Angels and Demons, while fluffing over the cruel sacrifices he made in his creation.
Edited by Griff#1959 on 8/29/2012 7:02 PM PDT
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Kulle fooled me more than Belial... how sad is that?
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08/29/2012 04:48 PMPosted by steve
I think that he, like most characters, would believe that he was the hero of his own story. Whether others view his actions and motivations as good, evil, or somewhere in-between depends entirely on their perspective.


Except it is never explained what his actions were. We cannot view "his actions" as anything but how our character interprets them, which is apparently bad but there is absolutely no explanation given for why they are bad.

"Betrayer of Horadrim" yet there isn't a single hint in the entire game as to how exactly he betrayed the Horadrim. He never killed any Horadrim, as far as I know, he simply had different views than them. If that makes him a Betrayer then it raises the question of how well these labels are applied.

It doesn't depend on the perspective, either. The perspective is given by the story telling. If some people think that your character saying "You must be stopped!" makes the character evil then they're simply believing whatever they initially think they should believe regardless of the facts that would back up that belief.

But then someone like myself thinks, "Well, he actually hasn't done anything evil that I can see" is not viewing it in a different perspective, its just looking at the facts that would support my belief. I'm not saying he's good or bad, but from what is presented to us throughout the game there is no way to tell whether he is good or bad, but then he is dismissed as an "evil" character (which is just bad story telling).

It should be evident that the character is evil, we shouldn't have to simply assume he is because he has a raspy voice and laughs a lot... that just supports poorly constructed prejudices. Why isn't the Demon Hunter evil? He certainly sounds evil. From what we know, he's just as evil as Zoltun Kulle.

Bad story telling is bad story telling. It has nothing to do with "perspective".


I could have never said it better myself.
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Sure he might have been a power-hungry Horadrim renegade, but he did aim to save mankind from the consequences of meaningless, never ending battles of angels of demons and their plots against Nephalem.

Ensuring the safety and well being of one's race, now that's something I would hardly call evil.


Zultun Kulle made a soulstone that could hold souls of angels. It is also strongly suggested that he committed quite a few evil acts in his attempts to become a god. The decisions he made and the things he did made him evil. Yes, he was helpful, but for all the wrong reasons.

However I believe the objective was to create characters where the line of good and evil is very easily blended. It is by intention that many characters in diablo are gray. You are suppose to think Adria is good. After all she is very motherly. But isn't she just a bit too motherly and one sided? Every time I replay the game I see more and more of her true character seeping out. Through much of Act 2 I always felt she was pushing Leah just a little too hard and often questioned her. In the Bazaar she calls saving people a fools errand and discourages the hero from doing it.

Anyhow, props to Blizzard. ZK is still evil evil evil.


How are we supposed to think Adria is good? Obvious villain is obvious. Heck, the first time she's mentioned in the game you are given reason to distrust her before you've even met her. Everything about her oozed villain. Never once was I allowed to think she might be a good guy. I was just waiting for the chance to put her out of our misery and never given that chance for some silly reason. Even on the roof when she's revealed as a villain in all her glory....what happens with her? I'm still not sure to this day how she made it off that roof alive. All it would have taken is one good kick and she'd have been out of our misery forever off the side of the pa#*@%t.

Contrasted to Khulle who I almost wanted to quit playing the game when given no choice but to kill the only person who seemed to understand how we were being played for fools by angels, demons and allies alike. At no point playing through the story the first time did I think of him as a villain. I loved him. He was awesome, and he was pointing out the real villain (Adria) from the time you meet him. Yet for no reason at all our character stabs him in the back and kills him.

*edit* I'm not sure the point in the censorship that was done at the end of my first paragraph. It is simply a word for part of a castle, but for some reason it was partially turned into QBert text.
Edited by MrMagoo421#1314 on 8/29/2012 7:13 PM PDT
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08/29/2012 07:03 PMPosted by Kadderly


Except it is never explained what his actions were. We cannot view "his actions" as anything but how our character interprets them, which is apparently bad but there is absolutely no explanation given for why they are bad.

"Betrayer of Horadrim" yet there isn't a single hint in the entire game as to how exactly he betrayed the Horadrim. He never killed any Horadrim, as far as I know, he simply had different views than them. If that makes him a Betrayer then it raises the question of how well these labels are applied.

It doesn't depend on the perspective, either. The perspective is given by the story telling. If some people think that your character saying "You must be stopped!" makes the character evil then they're simply believing whatever they initially think they should believe regardless of the facts that would back up that belief.

But then someone like myself thinks, "Well, he actually hasn't done anything evil that I can see" is not viewing it in a different perspective, its just looking at the facts that would support my belief. I'm not saying he's good or bad, but from what is presented to us throughout the game there is no way to tell whether he is good or bad, but then he is dismissed as an "evil" character (which is just bad story telling).

It should be evident that the character is evil, we shouldn't have to simply assume he is because he has a raspy voice and laughs a lot... that just supports poorly constructed prejudices. Why isn't the Demon Hunter evil? He certainly sounds evil. From what we know, he's just as evil as Zoltun Kulle.

Bad story telling is bad story telling. It has nothing to do with "perspective".


I could have never said it better myself.


Except that you visited the "creations" and the realms that Kulle invented and he mentions that "I had to sacrifice much..." and looking around you can see the ceremonial tables and torture devices used to pursue his destiny. He has the same disregard for life as the Angels and Demons, he simply finds his purpose to be ample justification for his deeds.
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I could have never said it better myself.


Except that you visited the "creations" and the realms that Kulle invented and he mentions that "I had to sacrifice much..." and looking around you can see the ceremonial tables and torture devices used to pursue his destiny. He has the same disregard for life as the Angels and Demons, he simply finds his purpose to be ample justification for his deeds.


I'm going to have to play those realms again, but I don't recall seeing torture devices.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
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Posts: 3,337
well he did try over and over that there was one who's motives were...impure.

he was right. :p
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Dude, Kulle was right, he was protecting his own race from both te demons and angels.

Kulle +1!!!!11
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[quote][quote]

Contrasted to Khulle who I almost wanted to quit playing the game when given no choice but to kill the only person who seemed to understand how we were being played for fools by angels, demons and allies alike. At no point playing through the story the first time did I think of him as a villain. I loved him. He was awesome, and he was pointing out the real villain (Adria) from the time you meet him. Yet for no reason at all our character stabs him in the back and kills him.


I watched an interesting movie the other day "Thank you for Smoking" in which a tobacco lobbyist is teaching his son how to win an argument that should not be in your favor. If you can counter the point to make the other side look worse, you look better.

In this case we observe the realms that he created along with some failed ones. We see the torture that must have went on. We here him tell us that the needless sacrifice of the innocent is something that even the Angel of Justice would not do. So we are to believe that he is against such genocide. The catch of course being *needless*; in his mind, his ends justified his means.

In a moment of realization, we execute Kulle realizing that Angels are no better than Demons, and we are also better off without Kulle as well. The Demons and Angels wanted to eliminate the threat of humans. Kulle wanted a race of his own kind, even if it meant sacrificing quite a few of us to achieve that goal. So while he is not only betrayer to mankind, he is certainly one of them.
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